Who is the "I"?

[Kamalam]

Project, that question is the most profound question anyone can ask. It is the heart of Ramana Maharshi's teaching... Who am I? This is self-inquiry in a nutshell.

The "I" exists in YOU. It is a temporary phenomenon that exists for a while and then disappears. YOU continue on. So, who is this you? Back to square one!

I guess the only real way to answer that question is to die before you die (the seeker's path) or just wait until the physical body bites the dust. Truth can't be explained, it must be experienced. What is so funny and cool is that we can't help but try. Try and try to understand. Eventually, that need drops away and another takes over. Until finally there arises the desire to just STOP.

"That instant of stopping revealed the peace that is beyond understanding. In that peace, I discovered the inclusion of all horror and all beauty, all desperation and all relaxation. But that revelation did not occur thrugh understanding."---Gangaji

[Captain Beyond]

Will chime in later on this.....nice avatar Kamalam.:veryhappy

[Project]

English is just silly for trying to talk about this stuff. Feel free to make up words, I do it all the time... English is structured for business, not sprituality.

"I" is the whiff of life? The human instincts? The base mortal mind? The 'you' the 'I' is inside, is this eternal, a soul in other words?

Does the soul inform "I"? Is "I" seperate from the 'You' - is it desirable to have closeness or distance in these entities?

Can my "I" be the same as anyone else's? Could they be seen in terms of archetypes? Has my 'You' been here before? And if so, did it have a totally different 'I'?

[Kamalam]

From my understanding, the "I" is the sense of personal doership we have in relation to the actions that take place through our body-mind organisms. Something happens - we slap someone, we solve a mathematical equation, we experience "oneness"... and the sense of personal doership says, "That was MY action. I did that. That was MY experience. It was MY choice."

In actuality, the action simply happened through the body-mind organism called 'you.'

For a few people, there comes a realization that "I" is just the experiencer, not the actor. It is the medium through which experience simply takes place. There arises a sense of dislocation from the ego and a feeling of being the witness. This starts feeling more real than the perception that "I" control anything. All that personal attachment to "me and my life" starts slipping. What gets experienced more and more is the nothingness that is the everything-ness.

Terms like 'soul' or 'false self/ ego' are just further descriptions of the "I." They refer to the polarity that is this world... whereas Being/Consciousness/Whatever-you-want-to-call-it is without description and has no reference point.

But remember, Consciousness is everything... even the ego. Even the belief that you are your ego. That is why this whole thing is called lila, God's play.

And that is also why enlightenment doesn't exist except as a concept. All that is here is Consciousness. The movement toward 'enlightenement' or total confusion is still Consciousness.

[Project]

“Dear Sir, poor sir, brave sir: You are an experiment by the Creator of the Universe.” (Vonnegut 259)

“You are the only creature in the entire Universe who has free will. You are the only one who has to figure out what to do next—and why. Everybody else is a robot, a machine.” (Vonnegut 259)

- Breakfast of Champions, Kurt Vonnegut

[Kamalam]

It is only the "I" that would feel like a robot - and you are not the "I."

:ponder:

"Man was predestined to have free will."
--Hal Lee Luyah

"The truth will set you free. But before it does, it will make you angry."
--Jerry Joiner

"Dear ones,
You who are trying to learn
The Miracle of Love
Through the use of reason,
I am terribly afraid
You will never see the point"
--Hafiz

[Project]

I see it not so much as a statement against free will as an interesting philosophical position... it is more a koan for me.

So where is the crossover, we are figments of our own god-like imagination?

[Captain Beyond]

The great Masters taught us to get rid of the "I" "me" "mine" mentality, the egos.

Consciousness is awareness and one is not aware when in the ego state. The ego's feed off of the consciousness and do strive to keep us there as it is their sustinance.

When we are angry or revengeful or jealous, we are not aware of our surroundings, our conscoiusness is being controlled by the egos and all thoughts are focused thusly.

I want, I need, I will have, I will get even, and so on, consume us. We become the instrument of the egos and not the aware observer.All materialism (which was shunned by the great Masters) is a diversion of the consciousness, to want more than you need, to be jealous, greedy, envious, and so on.

Our very reason for being here is to prepare ourselves to get rid of the "I", and just become pure consciousness.

It is a very long and arduous task, and some here on this earth are just beginning while others are further along the path. It doesn't mean the less progressed are any less important, just means they have more lessons to learn.

Those who ridicule others for their race, sexuality and so on have many lifetimes yet to live, and perhaps some of those will be as those that they so easily made fun of. Those lifetimes however, will teach them about consciousness, awareness, love and free the essence from the "I".

It's not any picnic either, as strong egos will fight to maintain their existance as any sentient thing does. Once you identify the egos and mark them for removal, your in for a battle, but don't wanna stray too far off topic!:ponder:

[Kamalam]

Look, you can't get rid of the "I." It just ain't possible. YOU did not create the "I" - and what you did not create, you cannot destroy. Obviously Consciousness/Being has no problem with the "I" - look around, there are over 6 billion of them running around.

Enlightenment, or the dropping away of the sense of personal doership, is just an event. An impersonal event, no different than snapping your fingers. It happens. And nothing we do can hasten or hinder it. Why? Because the "I" is just a construct. It has no intrinsic value other than as a place holder.

I love the movie The Matrix to illustrate this point. There are all these billions of body-mind mechanisms kept alive in these little fluid-filled pods, while their minds are being fed a program that makes them believe they are actually living a life, having problems, falling in love, etc.

No matter how real it seems, "life" is nothing more than a simulation. They cannot free themselves because, as simulations, they have NO POWER. The only way they can become free is if someone unhooks them from the pod. Even Neo, though he *knew* reality was not as it seemed, could not free himself. An outside, transcendent, event had to happen for that to occur.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing stuff to try and become free - it's just that that has no correlation with the actual event called Enlightenment. The only real benefit from a certain practice or technique is that it can make you (as the "I") feel better. Less stressed. And that is no small thing. It can be a great thing! Just not relevant to the final Understanding.

Again - it comes back to, who are you? If you are the "I" then there's a lot at stake with becoming Enlightened. And there's a lot to lose, a lot of suffering involved if you don't succeed. However, if you accept that experiences happen, emotions arise THROUGH you... and that YOU are the totality, not the simulation, then tremendous peace is possible.

[Tara]

"Who Am I " actually is a zen koan. When "who am i" occupies you completely, you, yourself, will eventually be forgotten and you may discover you "original face" or true nature. (my 2 cents,
nothing new, of course.)

[Captain Beyond]

Ah, the koans, and also the duality exercises are good for that!

[Tara]

Yup, when you work the "Who Am I" koan you first experience the duality between I, the enquirer and I, the subject. Supposedly, after a long enough inquisition, they merge. Sitting on one's butt for a gazillion hours to experience
this is a tremendous pain. I'm leaning much more towards "lying down meditation" than sitting these days.

[Alpha]

Who is the "I"?

Does it exist? Is it a temporal abberation of third dimensional thinking and grounding?

Does the "I" really exist without ego and subjectivity?

Is the "I" you, me ...the "whole"...part of, not??

[Nemo]

According to Buddhism, there is no 'I" at all. There is only temporary states that are sewn together in the mind and forming an opinion of a permanent being.

In Hinduism, there is a permanent, eternal "I Am" - pure consciousness that is a never ending aspect of the cosmos. It is the same "I Am" that is in every person and conscious being. This is not to be confused with the ego which is "I Am" intertwined with a personal story and image.

In Christianity, the ego or personality has a permanent existence that survives death. It is what we think we are - a male or female with certain characteristics and interests.

[Divinorumus]

According to Buddhism, there is no 'I" at all. There is only temporary states that are sewn together in the mind and forming an opinion of a permanent being.

In Hinduism, there is a permanent, eternal "I Am" - pure consciousness that is a never ending aspect of the cosmos. It is the same "I Am" that is in every person and conscious being. This is not to be confused with the ego which is "I Am" intertwined with a personal story and image.

In Christianity, the ego or personality has a permanent existence that survives death. It is what we think we are - a male or female with certain characteristics and interests.

I agree, our essence, soul if you prefer, is eternal, but not the EGO. The ego is temporary and is born and dies with the body. I learned this during numerous egoless experiences. There are plant teachers that can totally strip your ego from your conscious thoughts, and what a remarkable experience THAT can be. To be conscious and yet totally devoid of ego, not knowing what you are or where you are is an enlightening experience. To have those grounded filters removed from your thoughts is a mind blowing experience that can fill you with so much amazement and wonder and love and excitement ~ words can NOT adequately explain or describe it. It's as if suddenly YOU become it all as opposed to what the limited ego represents. Mind blowing.

[Judee]

Superb thoughts Nemo and Div!!! :notworthy

I feel that we are given 'ego' to overcome and rise above, thus evolving to a slightly higher level, or state of being. Some religions elevate. Some religions stagnate.

[Nemo]

Judee,

Thank you. Not to take away from the subject, but I LOVE your avatar. Man, I love these old Christmas card things. I need to find one right now.

[Nemo]

I have also experienced egoless states of consciousness. It is called 'samadhi' or 'satori.' They just happened to me without drugs - out of nowhere. In these states I can still move around and even talk with people. But 'inside' everything is totally different - I feel like 'god' - like I've never been born or will ever die. I do not feel I have any history at all. Not a man or woman. And, I feel like I've never done a single thing - thus, I am without sin. I have no name or form, and I exist in a void - somewhere outside of all time and space. I am very clear of all of this while at the same time 'acting' out my life as usual. People from the outside do not know that anything is different at all. It is very remarkable.

[Divinorumus]

They just happened to me without drugs - out of nowhere.

FYI, a natural plant teacher IS NOT A DRUG! :aargh4:

Just wanted to make that clear. Thus, this happens natural to me too. :08:

[Divinorumus]

In these states I can still move around and even talk with people.

During the total egoless experiences that I've had, which has been over a thousand, maybe over 1500 by now, I not only do not know what I am or where I am, even the concept of up and down mean nothing to me. And, my entire vocabulary is gone. Attempts to speak are mostly unintelligible. I'm even unfamiliar with gravity. During the few times I've attempted to resist such an experience and tried to move, I can't, I become like it's the first time I've ever experienced being in a body. If a fire in the room broke out, not only would I not know what that was, I wouldn't know how to get up and leave the room. Anyone observing me during these experiences might assume my mind had just been erased clean, like a new born infant I would appear to them.

From what you've described, I would say that is close to a level 4 experience. Almost egoless, but not entirely. In between level 5 and level 6 experience is where I step into the other side. I call it a level 5+ experience. While each level is very interesting and rewarding, only at level 5+ does my own ego begone and I cross over to the other side. It's there where all souls reside while not manifested here.




Level - 1 SUBTLE effects. A feeling that "something" is happening, although it is difficult to say just what. Relaxation and increased sensual appreciation may be noted. This mild level is useful for meditation and may facilitate sexual pleasure.

Level - 2 ALTERED perception. Colors and textures are more pronounced. Appreciation of music may be enhanced. Space may appear of greater or lesser depth than is usual. But visions do not occur at this level. Thinking becomes less logical, and more playful; short-term memory difficulties may be noted.

Level - 3 LIGHT visionary state. Closed-eye visuals (clear imagery with eyes closed: fractal patterns, vine-like and geometric patterns, visions of objects and designs). The imagery is often two dimensional. If open-eyed visual effects occur, these are usually vague and fleeting. At this level, phenomena similar to the hypnagogic phenomena that some people experience at sleep onset occur. At this level, visions are experienced as "eye candy" but are not confused with reality.

Level - 4 VIVID visionary state. Complex three-dimensional realistic appearing scenes occur. Sometimes voices may be heard. With eyes open, contact with consensual reality will not be entirely lost, but when you close your eyes you may forget about consensus reality and enter completely into a dreamlike scene. Shamanistic journeying to other lands--foreign or imaginary; encounters with beings (entities, spirits) or travels to other ages may occur. You may even live the life of another person. At this level you have entered the shaman's world. Or if you prefer: you are in "dream time." With eyes closed, you experience fantasies (dream like happenings with a story line to them). So long as your eyes are closed you may believe they are really occurring. This differs from the "eye candy" closed-eye imagery, of level 3.

Level - 5 IMMATERIAL existence. At this level one may no longer be aware of having a body. Consciousness remains and some thought processes are still lucid, but one becomes completely involved in inner experience and looses all contact with consensual reality. Individuality may be lost; one experiences merging with God/dess, mind, universal consciousness, or bizarre fusions with other objects--real or imagined (e.g. experiences such as merging with a wall or piece of furniture). At this level it is impossible to function in consensual reality, but unfortunately some people do not remain still but move around in this befuddled state. For this reason a sitter is essential to ensure the safety of someone voyaging to these deep levels. To the person experiencing this the phenomenon may be terrifying or exceedingly pleasant; but to an outside observer the individual may appear confused or disoriented.

Level 6 - AMNESIC effects. At this stage, either consciousness is lost, or at least one is unable to later recall what one had experienced. The individual may fall, or remain immobile or thrash around; somnambulistic behavior may occur. Injuries can be sustained without pain being felt; on awakening, the individual will have no recollection of what he/she did, experienced, or said in level 6. People cannot recall what they experience in this very deep trance state. This is not a desirable level, because nothing can latter be recalled of the experience.

[Nemo]

You're talking about a drug state. Enlightened gurus sit in front of people and speak like normal people. An example of this is Ramana Maharshi. He was in a continual enlightened 'ego-less' state of consciousness. Not a zombie at all.

[Divinorumus]

You're talking about a drug state.

The hell I am. A plant is not a drug. Get that through your skull. DOH! Silly you, don't insult my intelligence. Don't be so closed minded that it shows.

[Divinorumus]

Unless you've been there, done that, you do not KNOW and can not say so or say a damn thing about what it is or is not.

[Divinorumus]

Not a zombie at all.

You know, you have no damn idea what your talking about. Zombie?. Why don't you check it out before acting like a clueless soul.

[williamstade]

I think that I am nothing more than those two English syllables, I or me. Any roles like practicing guitar hobbyist, student, writer, guy on Federal Disability, are experienced fully though if I were to be asked in the quiet of my mind usually admit that those are something like fleeting illusory realities that I have a love-hate relationship with but in reality I'm just those little syllables, I and me. The nice thing about Buddhism is that it teaches that those, the self, is sort of a marvel to be in reality

I arrived at it by way of a self-inquiry teaching this thread speaks of.

Thanks for the chance to talk about these things. It really is a fundamental question the self, ain't it? Laugh.

William

[Divinorumus]

It's pretty difficult to image anyone can speak, let alone sit upright, during an egoless state. FACT! Look at a newborn infant for the purest egoless state of being while manifested in the flesh. I wouldn't call that being a zombie.

What this Ramana Maharshi may have been experiencing is more akin to "selflessness", which is not the same as egolessness. Egoless states are extremely difficult to attain through meditation or other similar thang. From my first hand experience and observations, most individuals don't even know what egolessness means until taught by a teacher plant and EXPERIENCED. I had no clue what such a state of consciousness was until a plant taught me. Even with that, after knowing and having experienced total loss of ego, I've only been able to re-experience and reach that state a couple times in my life without the assistance of a teacher plant, and it was extremely difficult. I can get close, but not all the way there without help from a teacher plant.

Egolessness means exactly what it implies ~ not half way there. When you're egoless, you haven't a clue where you are, what you are, what's going on, you can't interact with consensual reality, you can't even speak. Anyone that can sit up and speak is NOT in an ego-be-gone state. FACT! To do so defies the meaning of egolessness. PERIOD! In such a state, you are the closest thing to being like a newborn here on Earth. You can't even think in terms of a language, let alone speak.

Loss of ego can be terrifying for some, and totally pleasurable and enlightening for others. To suddenly loose ones ego and yet observe this realm is unlike anything ever experienced except during those initial moment at birth. Even attempting to adequately verbally describe this experience afterwards is futile. It's like a red pill thing ~ it can not be told, only experienced.

[Judee]

The hell I am. A plant is not a drug. Get that through your skull. DOH! Silly you, don't insult my intelligence. Don't be so closed minded that it shows.


Serious questions Div... Are you talking about a state of being after ingesting Salvia divinorum?

[Divinorumus]

Serious questions Div... Are you talking about a state of being after ingesting Salvia divinorum?

That's one method (all plants as well as other life on Earth are all potential teachers). I'm not disputing one can possibly achieve an egoless state of consciousness even through meditation or whatever. I'm only saying: during a true state of egolessness, your conscious mind is totally devoid of the "I" and all that entails, even language. You are truly in a state of being, consciousness, similar to that of a newborn infant. An empty data bank. Many people think they know what egolessness is, but I think not if they still retain the ability to interact with gravity and talk during the experience. Language is part of the "I", the ego, too. Again, look at a new born infant, at the beginning of the creation of their ego, to understand what I mean. The egoless experience is like suddenly being newborn, seconds old, with no developed sense of "I" YET! And, damn it, that is NOT being high on drugs or a zombie. Sorry, I take offense at that comparison by any that have no idea what I or they are talking about. Go there, check it out, then we can talk and compare notes. :notworthy

[Judee]

Sorry, I take offense at that comparison by any that have no idea what I or they are talking about. Go there, check it out, then we can talk and compare notes. :notworthy

Speaking only for myself, I don't think anyone meant to offend you Div. It's hard to understand what someone else is talking about unless they've experienced it first hand, right? Each one of us has experienced things that others haven't. We can only learn by sharing and talking about it... :veryhappy

[Divinorumus]

It's hard to understand what someone else is talking about unless they've experienced it first hand, right?

Well, twice saying a plant is a drug and that a true ego-be-gone experience is being zombie is clearly communicating something to me, LOL. And, the very idea that knowledge of gravity and language skills remain while the "I" is gone is blatantly contradictory.

What gets me is when someone says "no, that's not right" without obviously having any experience to say so. It's not being honest too. And, in this case, it's a disservice and an insult to all teacher plants on Earth too.

Our brains have receptors keyed to these natural compounds. This tells me, without any doubt, that nature has intended us to investigate these things if we choose to do so. It's why I go off and will become defensive when some dictatorial regime feels they have a right to deny my natural unalienable right to investigate these things too. My response will always be to them FU you, ha. It's the same logic why I'll also go off when some dictator says YOU must live here or there. If nature had meant for us to live otherwise, we would not have receptors in our brains for these particular natural compounds, and there would have been fences all around us from the beginning. I live by natures laws, not MANS.

All I can suggest to the naysayers is check it out, try it, go there, experience it, take that metaphoric red pill, before you start insulting and dis'n what you have no idea what you're talking about.

It's irritating too when, for example, someone also calls for something to be made illegal while having no experience what-so-ever with what they are talking about, or they point to someone who did try whatever but did it all wrong and screwed up or they couldn't handle it. And they can't point to a bunch of fools doing it all wrong and out of proper context and setting in some idiotic YouTube video either.

There are wonders and knowledge to be found and experienced all around this planet in many places and in many forms, and I believe we were meant to explore these things wherever they may be. Until someone tastes sugar, they can not say "no, that's not sweet, that's sour and zombieish." And, book reading about the absence of the ego, or reading what I say ain't "experiencing" either. You've got to taste sugar before you can start talking about what it is or isn't. You can't experience "sweet" by reading about it or listening to someone describe it. That's like trying to describe color to someone that's been blind all their life. Experience doesn't work like that. Knowing is knowing, experiencing it, and not making stuff up because of some prejudice incorrect preconception.

Zombie? LOL, okay, whatever belief makes your ego feel comfortable and enlightened, ha.

[williamstade]

Hi Div. I came close to the perspective of refusing to call a plant a drug. Personally, I'm still going to call any plant with a noticable psychoactive effect a drug.

The egolessness state that you are speaking of; is there still somewhere in these experiences a sensation of a you experiencing such things? A self called you experiencing your egolessness state?

[Divinorumus]

Hey William. Any attempt to adequately describe an egoless experience really defies a proper adequate description. I mean, ask yourself what it was like moments after your birth.

Some words come close to describing the absence of "I", and my analogy to being like a newborn infant that has yet to develop an ego is probably the closest I can do. I can't imagine any state of being and consciousness that comes any closer, except maybe after death when the body and ago die, but I can't confirm that yet.

And, a drug is a manufactured thing, a plant is not. Just because a plant affects conscious awareness does not make it a drug, no more than a rock used to smash someone on the head can be called a hammer . . . or a conscious affecting drug. Right?

Gee, we need a volunteer here to confirm this experience of "I" be gone, ha. Any takers? It's still legally permitted in most states. It's only a 5-15 minute absence. ? :baby:

An egoless state of awareness is incredibly amazing. It's awareness with the programmed "I" grounding filters turned off.

[VOguy]

Div, you're unwillingness to call "the plant" a "drug", (even though it's the chemical content of the plant that causes the awareness), is not denial is it?

[crossfire]

One school of Buddhism posits that the "I" or ego is a product of the seventh consciousness, whose mode of knowledge is said to be that of fallacy. (The first five consciousnesses being the senses, the sixth consciousness being mind that brings about physical action, speech, inquiry etc, the seventh is concerned with self (I) and judgment, and the eight is called the alaya, or storehouse consciousness.)

VERSES DELINEATING THE EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESSES
by Tripitaka Master Hsuan-Tsang of the Tang Dynasty (http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVersessontents.htm)

[Biker]

Hey Div...I find it hard to believe that a plant/drug exists on this planet that could possibly help you banish your ego.

Biker

[Divinorumus]

Hey Div...I find it hard to believe that a plant/drug exists on this planet that could possibly help you banish your ego.

Biker

Do we have a volunteer. :439:

[williamstade]

Yeah. But there is still a basic sense of a self doing the experiencing of the egoless state?

I learned in a course that I took at a local University to not hold the popular definition of "ego". In common parlance that word has taken on a negative, puny, miserable little thing vibe. Nah, the word may have been around before Freud however he helped a flourishing of the vocabulary word by placing it as the conscious aware self wrestling between unconscious drives for both perfection and pleasure. These last two being his Id and Superego. Anyone ever notice this differentiation between pop. conceptions of ego and its roots in more mormal definitions?

William

[Divinorumus]

Yeah. But there is still a basic sense of a self doing the experiencing of the egoless state?

Only the sense of being of the ONE, of the eternal timeless infinite collective.

To hard to describe.

[williamstade]

Only the sense of being of the ONE, of the eternal timeless infinite collective.

To hard to describe.

Yeah. I know what you mean. I had a feeling that it was something like the brevity of your quoted words here just struck upon.

William

[Project]

I think the point here is more that plants are imbibed by everyone every day, and if you say someone achieved enlightenment without them, you are wrong. If you think that only salvia or pot can change your brain you are wrong. Every substance you consume is a drug, and it is broken down in the body to form more drugs. Drugs are chemistry, we call many things drugs, and some we don't call drugs, but in fact, the whole world is made of drugs, the air we breathe, the food we eat, our brains and bodies are packed with them.

Meditation and training may be able to change brain chemistry slightly with no external stimuli, but in reality, the meditator is calling on internal drug reserves. He could easily be getting high in the same way someone who took DMA would for instance. He/she is changing their brain chemistry. So are people in love, or with anxiety, and so on.

There is no difference between pot and dandelions as far as their "drugginess" goes, they just contain different compounds.

Drugs is a bad word made up a long time ago to fool us. The word depends on the context, we can have "good drugs" and "bad drugs". Many people prefer the name pharmaceutical drugs to specify purified or extracted compounds... yet in the end, even these are natural, and can hardly have a distinction drawn, especially for someone who, for instance, drinks tea.

[Divinorumus]

The only issue that strikes me as suspicious is how anyone could interact with consensual reality and even manage to speak if the ego, the "I", is actually absent. If one can speak, the "I", the ego, is obviously present, embedded, connected, and engaged. Right? :boggled:

[williamstade]

The only issue that strikes me as suspicious is how anyone could interact with consensual reality and even manage to speak if the ego, the "I", is actually absent. If one can speak, the "I", the ego, is obviously present, embedded, connected, and engaged. Right? :boggled:

Yeah. However you may find it also there and present in the egoless state although it then gets called eastern mysticism's "silent observer". Do you see a truth there? No?

William

[crossfire]

One school of Buddhism posits that the "I" or ego is a product of the seventh consciousness, whose mode of knowledge is said to be that of fallacy. (The first five consciousnesses being the senses, the sixth consciousness being mind that brings about physical action, speech, inquiry etc, the seventh is concerned with self (I) and judgment, and the eight is called the alaya, or storehouse consciousness.)

VERSES DELINEATING THE EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESSES
by Tripitaka Master Hsuan-Tsang of the Tang Dynasty (http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVersessontents.htm)


The only issue that strikes me as suspicious is how anyone could interact with consensual reality and even manage to speak if the ego, the "I", is actually absent. If one can speak, the "I", the ego, is obviously present, embedded, connected, and engaged. Right? :boggled:
The sixth consciousness, rather than the seventh consciousness (the "I" consciousness,) is the most important when in comes to speaking, in the above system.

[VOguy]

Should not "drug" mean a compound that is created vs one that is natural?

[Divinorumus]

The sixth consciousness, rather than the seventh consciousness (the "I" consciousness,) is the most important when in comes to speaking, in the above system.

Wha? Honestly, I have no idea what all this 7 6 8 4 5 whatever consciousness stuff means. (scratching head). Is someone pulling my leg here? :thinking: Sounds like something made up. None of it makes any sense. ?

[crossfire]

Wha? I have no idea what all this 7 6 9 12 4 5 whatever consciousness blah blah stuff means. (scratching head). Is someone pulling my leg here? :thinking: Sounds like something made up.
It's from the Yogacara school of Buddhism.

VERSES DELINEATING THE EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESSES
by Tripitaka Master Hsuan-Tsang of the Tang Dynasty (http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVersessontents.htm)

Basic Ideas of Yogacara Buddhism (http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/basicideas.htm)

[Divinorumus]

It's from the Yogacara school of Buddhism.

VERSES DELINEATING THE EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESSES
by Tripitaka Master Hsuan-Tsang of the Tang Dynasty (http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVersessontents.htm)

Basic Ideas of Yogacara Buddhism (http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/basicideas.htm)

I read that, and to be honest with you, I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. for example:

4) Consciousness. According to the Mahayana it refers to the eighth consciousness. It indicates that consciousness is capable of nourishing the bodily life of sentient beings. Life feeds off the eighth consciousness, the basic life force or life energy. When that life-energy is exhausted, death occurs.

Consciousness refers to the 8th consciousness? Wha? Consciousness can nourish the body life? Huh? Life feeds off the eighth consciousness? What in the world does that mean? My body life feeds on food. And I only have one consciousness (well, okay, technically two if you want to count the left and right brains separately). And I expect I'll die when my heart has had enough or if a truck should run me over or some punk feels they are entitled to my pocket change.

None of that makes any sense to me whatsoever and doesn't even remotely equate to anything I'm familiar with. It sounds like all that chakarara stuff that makes no sense either. It sounds like a lot of something or other to sell books and to send one of into confusion land. Maybe even disinformation.

Honesty, none of that makes any sense. Anyone else know what all that says?

The above dharmas are listed in the One Hundred Dharmas under the second of the five categories: Dharmas Interactive with the Mind. The other categories of the One Hundred Dharmas are: Mind Dharmas, Form Dharmas, Dharmas not Interactive with the Mind, and Unconditioned Dharmas. For further information on the One Hundred Dharmas, see Shastra on the Door to Understanding the Hundred Dharmas by Vasubandhu Bodhisattva with Commentary of Tripitaka Master Hua.

What? Sounds like FUBAR. How does one make sense of this? Test for this?

[williamstade]

Crossfire might know and I am guessing those kinds of deep meditative prayerful states Saints are said to have been literally physically nourished by through consciousness alone. These at times have other miracle stories associated with their at times historic lives.

Or maybe this Eighth consciousness is a revernce filled sort of altered state (laugh) where the person is aware on a profounder level of the sacredness of ingesting food and the nurturance of the life immediately around us from the plants to friends and family.

What's everybody else think?

William

[crossfire]

I read that, and to be honest with you, I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. for example:

4) Consciousness. According to the Mahayana it refers to the eighth consciousness. It indicates that consciousness is capable of nourishing the bodily life of sentient beings. Life feeds off the eighth consciousness, the basic life force or life energy. When that life-energy is exhausted, death occurs.

Consciousness refers to the 8th consciousness? Wha? Consciousness can nourish the body life? Huh? Life feeds off the eighth consciousness? What in the world does that mean? My body life feeds on food. And I only have one consciousness (well, okay, technically two if you want to count the left and right brains separately). And I expect I'll die when my heart has had enough or if a truck should run me over or some punk feels they are entitled to my pocket change.

None of that makes any sense to me whatsoever and doesn't even remotely equate to anything I'm familiar with. It sounds like all that chakarara stuff that makes no sense either. It sounds like a lot of something or other to sell books and to send one of into confusion land. Maybe even disinformation.

Honesty, none of that makes any sense. Anyone else know what all that says?

The above dharmas are listed in the One Hundred Dharmas under the second of the five categories: Dharmas Interactive with the Mind. The other categories of the One Hundred Dharmas are: Mind Dharmas, Form Dharmas, Dharmas not Interactive with the Mind, and Unconditioned Dharmas. For further information on the One Hundred Dharmas, see Shastra on the Door to Understanding the Hundred Dharmas by Vasubandhu Bodhisattva with Commentary of Tripitaka Master Hua.

What? Sounds like FUBAR. How does one make sense of this? Test for this?
Alright, Div, would you like to explain where your consciousness and your thoughts come from?

[Divinorumus]

Alright, Div, would you like to explain where your consciousness and your thoughts come from?

Where do thoughts originate from while within any dream, illusion?

[crossfire]

Where do thoughts originate from while within any dream, illusion?
I'm listening....

[Judee]

Crossfire might know and I am guessing those kinds of deep meditative prayerful states Saints are said to have been literally physically nourished by through consciousness alone. These at times have other miracle stories associated with their at times historic lives.
William

ding ding ding ding ding!!!! :arms:

[earthist]

And now for something completely different......

Quoting Div in an earlier post:
"Gee, we need a volunteer here to confirm this experience of "I" be gone, ha. Any takers?"

I think I've 'remembered' being in that state, though certainly that is not the same as being in that state; not by a long shot (more in a minute). I think total 'I-lessness' is a state we all started from. It is our 'base' state, the 'Truth' with a capital 'T', of our existence. Essentially, I was once God: totally alone, and totally in control of all existence. There was no 'self' because there was no 'other.' There was a sense of before and after, but there was no time as we think of it. There was a sense of 'over there' and 'over here,' but there was no space as we think of it, more a sense of 'this part of me vs that part of me.' It was a 'game' to play with my 'stuff' which was all me anyway. It was boring and lonely, but those concepts didn't exist; I can only use them in comparison to now, and in looking back on then. Looking around, including reading the posts on this thread, suggests to me that this 'memory' I have is something shared by all of us, but we are not in that state now. How come?

I'll speak only for myself, and my personal memory; your mileage may vary. Suddenly someone 'appeared.' It was so completely a WTF moment that I'd say you have to experience it to get it. What? Who? How? Jeebus H. Christmas (more on that in a minute)! Try to imagine your whole universe has just been proven wrong. Wrong, wrong, WRONG!!! Suddenly, I am not God. Suddenly, I don't control everything. Suddenly, there is an Other. Sorry, you just had to be there, I can't describe the devastation.

Anyway, I believe that experience was the beginning: the beginning of time and space, the beginning of matter and energy, the beginning of lonliness and love, the beginning of the search for enlightenment, the beginning of everything. I think it's the basis for all religion, too. including the savior concept.

Now, I'm not talking airy-fairy here. That used to be the case, but I'm more than pleased to think that science is finally getting to the point where we have some insight that connects my airy-fairy 'memory' with the so-called real universe. Sadly, I cannot do the math, so I may be wrong, but check into the concept of branes in string theory. Of course, branes (or membranes aka 'M'-branes) are a mathematical construct, and cannot be described in words any more than the overwhelm of my 'memory.' The best attempt I've seen talks of them as semi-permiable shower curtains that delineate the 'edges' of universes. At these constructs, it's assumed to be possible for a kind of osmosis effect to occur that passes stuff from one side of the shower curtain to the other. In other words, branes allow for communication between universes.

So, I am saying that there is this thing we call the physical universe. In addition to that, each of us exists in her/his own universe. There is a 'god' of the physical universe, and we are all gods, too, of our own universes. The memory I cite above is the accidental, and probably random occurrence where my universe 'banged into' the physical universe, and transfer occurred through the 'shower curtain.' My 'memory' is necessarily anthropomorphised. I suspect that's the difference between 'remembering' and the actual experiencing Div describes. There was probably nothing to see at the time; there probably was no light until afterward; even the idea of 'before and after' is probably imposed from the here and now onto the actual experience.

We've literally spent eons devolving (?) to our current state, but enough for now.

ps: I've always thought of 'drugs' as being the opposite of 'foods.' Drugs are generally poisonous substances, substances which can harm or kill the body. As such, they can, in the right dosage, 'put the body to sleep' as it were, which can leave the spirit sans body and all the associated distractions to experience existence.

[Divinorumus]

I'm listening....

That is my answer. None of this is really real, it's all just an illusion. There is no spoon. There is no "I" or "ego" either. You and I are even an illusion. Everything "within" a dream is an illusion. The nature of this realm is no different than the nature of any dream, illusion, you find yourself consciously aware of and experiencing. This you will know if you can become lucidly aware and conscious within any dream. Our consciousness is not a product of the illusion, the illusion is a product of our conscious awareness. And those that are lucidly aware of and realize this can prove it to themselves . . . . by lucidly manipulating and (collectively or individually) influencing the dream, the illusion. There is no spoon. No you or "I" either. It's all a product of our collective conscious awareness, as in every dream. (have you never wondered who all those others are in any dream?). This "I" know for a FACT! Others too. Those that doubt do not. FACT! :) Check it out, it's true! And it's not a secret either. Some prefer to remain consciously "grounded." Others prefer conscious "freedom."

[Divinorumus]

It was so completely a WTF moment that I'd say you have to experience it to get it.
:arms:

So, I am saying that there is this thing we call the physical universe.
Yes, and no. I mean, when you are experiencing a dream, an illusion, and find yourself sitting on a park bench under a tree, gazing upon a nearby pond, exactly how far is it from that bench to the pond?

The problem I have with all this Buddhism stuff is that it's backwards, it's an inward to outward approach of attempting to understand. On the flip side, I take the opposite approach, from the outward to the inward.

By this I mean, you can sit forever upon a bench in that park and contemplate the nature of your reality and never "get it" if you remain non-lucid within the dream, illusion. A stranger could walk up and whisper in your ear "it's all an illusion" and you'll still never "get it" and think they are crazy and insane ... if you remain grounded and consciously non-lucid in your awareness of reality. Now, however YOU prefer and can manage get into to that state of lucid awareness matters not (I simply find assistance from natures teachers is the easiest and quickest method to become lucid within the dream), THAT will destroy the grounded sense of "I" and allows one to lucidly see from the outside into the inward and THEN it all makes sense.

From my first hand experience, becoming lucidly aware while engaged within the illusion, the dream, is how to SEE what's going on, and no book or non-lucid contemplation is gonna reveal THAT. You can't think your way OUT, you have to think your way IN. I think that's the safeguard that allows those that want to remain grounded and clueless about the nature of reality to do so. I mean, it can be quite unsettling and very disturbing for some to suddenly realize that all this is just another dream, and the "you" and "I" and "all" this is just an illusion. Most aren't ready for that, nor do they want to know right now (they, the non-lucid souls in any dream, want to believe in the illusion as really real and forget about eternity for a while). But, when they die, wake-up from it, they will know. We all know. We only come here for a life to forget for a while. Eternity is a long time! ;)