Poverty is Poison

[Delphine]

Poverty Is Poison



Published: February 18, 2008
New York Times


“Poverty in early childhood poisons the brain.” That was the opening of an article in Saturday’s Financial Times, summarizing research presented last week at the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

As the article explained, neuroscientists have found that “many children growing up in very poor families with low social status experience unhealthy levels of stress hormones, which impair their neural development.” The effect is to impair language development and memory — and hence the ability to escape poverty — for the rest of the child’s life.

So now we have another, even more compelling reason to be ashamed about America’s record of failing to fight poverty.

L. B. J. declared his “War on Poverty” 44 years ago. Contrary to cynical legend, there actually was a large reduction in poverty over the next few years, especially among children, who saw their poverty rate fall from 23 percent in 1963 to 14 percent in 1969.

But progress stalled thereafter: American politics shifted to the right, attention shifted from the suffering of the poor to the alleged abuses of welfare queens driving Cadillacs, and the fight against poverty was largely abandoned.

In 2006, 17.4 percent of children in America lived below the poverty line, substantially more than in 1969. And even this measure probably understates the true depth of many children’s misery.

Living in or near poverty has always been a form of exile, of being cut off from the larger society. But the distance between the poor and the rest of us is much greater than it was 40 years ago, because most American incomes have risen in real terms while the official poverty line has not. To be poor in America today, even more than in the past, is to be an outcast in your own country. And that, the neuroscientists tell us, is what poisons a child’s brain.

FULL ARTICLE: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/opinion/18krugman.html?em&ex=1203570000&en=bb73e9f5e1b52890&ei=5070

[Divinorumus]

Well darn it, lets create a law then making it illegal to be poor. "Every slave must work, and work hard and long enough to not be poor." You know, until you outlaw poverty, there will always be those that choose to be poor.

[Judee]

I think those neuroscientists have loose screws. Growing up poor should be a reason to strive even harder to change your life for the better. As for poor kids having poisoned brains... hogwash! I grew up poor, and I never considered my brain poisoned. I didn't like being poor, but when I got old enough to be in the work force, it gave me wonderful incentive to succeed. It seems every time we turn around some 'thinker' is coming up with excuses for people not to take responsibility for themselves. :cussing:

[Divinorumus]

I don't know, some kids get kicked around quite a bit and grow up pretty f'd up and do have some legitimate gripes. Regardless though, it doesn't change the simple fact that everyone is responsible for themselves and nobody else is when they turn 18, unless they are legitimately all crippled up or can't tie their own shoes (too fat doesn't count, ha). Complaining and thinking the lucky magic fairy will come along one day when their ship arrives is not a very reliable get out of poverty strategy, and I see a lot of people like that. How many complaining poor have enrolled themselves in some vocational training program? And look at the next whiner who may complain everything costs too much and gripes about how little they make. See if they don't have an iToy or television or beer in the fridge or cigarettes in their pocket or a cell phone or other needless thing that they spent their income on instead of those necessary things that cost so much like food and housing and medical insurance, ha. "I don't want to pay the doctor bill, whaaa, I want to buy that new PS2 game I've been waiting forever for instead. Make them rich people pay my real bills. Whaaa." I've had those who complain about being poor turn overtime hours down because they were going drinking and bowling when the 5 o'clock whistle blows. Go figure.

[Project]

Being poor means alot of things. Less access to education and materials, less access to good activities and sports, music, etc... Maybe having to start working at a young age, changing the 'normal' way we think of kids growing up. Maybe very bad nutrition at a critical developmental period. There is elevated crime in poorer areas, and elevated violence. Drugs are more rampant. Diseases affect more people.

I think it all makes very much sense.

The fact there is a study that says this doesn't mean we need a social net for everyone and we have to automatically share all wealth, but without this information, we are missing something when debating poverty.

Poverty does not equal welfare, there are plenty of people working full work weeks, and still considered under the poverty level. In fact last time I checked it was a huge percentage of the population.

[WolfPa]

I guess non of those guys held everyday jobs.

It must feel good to be such a know-it-all.

[Project]

Currently roughly 12% of the U.S. population fall below the federal poverty threshold. There is however some controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Controversy) regarding the federal poverty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty) line, arguing that it either understates or overstates the problem of poverty. According to the United Nations, which defines poverty among high-income OECD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD) countries as those earning less than 50% of the median, 17% of Americans lived in poverty between 1999 and 2002, the second highest percentage of any high-income OECD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD) country.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#_note-UN) Overall the U.S. ranks 16th on the Human Poverty Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Poverty_Index), surpassed only by Ireland and Italy. Moreover, poverty in the U.S. is cyclical in nature, with individuals rising above and falling below the poverty threshold from time to time; as a result, far more than 12% of the population fall below the poverty line at some point over a given period of years.
“ "While in any given year 12 to 15 percent of the population is poor, over a ten-year period 40 percent experience poverty in at least one year because most poor people cycle in and out of poverty; they don't stay poor for long periods. Poverty is something that happens to the working class, not some marginal 'other' on the fringes of society." [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#_note-0)
”

Those danged know-it-alls at wikipedia too :icon16:

Poverty_line
Poverty_in_the_United_States
Purchasing_power_parity

[Divinorumus]

Cupidietare. Poverty is such a biased subjective term. If I had never seen a castle, I would have continued to believe I was the wealthiest luckiest man in the world, ha. Now I feel like hanging myself after seeing one, ha, I feel so inadequate and poor now. Okay, just kidding about the hanging thing, and the inadequate poor thing, but you see how this idea of poverty works right? It's a bogus contrived concept rooted in coveting. People only think they are poor when they compare themselves to others. Simply being alive and on this planet of countless opportunities makes everyone wealthy by default. Well, except those that you elite planet stealing gangsters have cordoned off into tiny little wasteland nations where little, if any, opportunity exists. There once was a time when those that considered themselves wealthy didn't have a car, or running hot and cold water, or a television, or carpeting, or a refrigerator, or microwave oven, or iPod, or telephone, or electric lights, or . . .

I don't want to talk about this any more, puke monkey humans make me sick.

[WolfPa]

(calls The Government)

Yeah, I got an Alien here you might want.

(The Air Force comes, grabs Divinorumus, and tosses Divinorumus into the back of a black van)

Bye. ^_^

(a few months later there is a FOX special hosted by Will Weaton showing Divinorumus being cut open by lab techs)

My work here is done.

[Divinorumus]

(The Air Force comes, grabs Divinorumus, and tosses Divinorumus into the back of a black van)

Ah, so the vamps covet my flesh and blood now, eh? Ya better bring more than the Air Force, I got voodoo, and the real collective, on my side. I suppose the vampires try that tactic on every visiting alien dignitary, huh? Hows that working out for yous all? I suppose you'll want to waterboard me before crucifying me too, huh? You know this means war of course. How dare you threaten the ruler of galactic sector 7G. I'll have you know that humans are no threat to us or anything off their little human farm prison.

Ya want to know what's poison here on Earth? Look around and be honest now. Ungrateful creatures. Hey, I have a spacetimeship thingy. I guess that suddenly makes the rest of you poor because none of you have enough collective wealth to buy it from me, so NAH! :lmao: Go ahead, do the same. Put a price upon your soul so high that there isn't enough wealth and fortune upon this planet to cause you to sell out and you too can be the richest soul on Earth, ha.

[Dera]

I can remember when I was 10 years old and in the 5th grade. Three of us lived in one room in a boarding house. We shared a bathroom with other boarders. We had a tiny sink and a hotplate in the corner of the room. The big entertainment was to go downstairs to the landlady's place and watch TV on a teensy screen with a big greenish magnifying glass in front of it and it was wonderful. We rode the streetcar and walked. There was some kind of a dance or festival at school where the girls were supposed to wear sunbonnets. My gram made mine with a dress to match. It was lavender with a "circle" skirt that had a ruffle all around the bottom. I could twirl around and it would swing 'way high around me. I felt like a princess.

I had absolutely no idea in those days that we were poor or in "reduced" circumstances. Everyone in the family always worked and it was a matter of pride that none ever took a single handout or any kind of public assistance. The US Navy doesn't support dependents in very high style, and my family were clerks, waitresses, truck drivers, and such. I was taught to have very polished manners and to appreciate education and above all, that honesty and morality count most of all.

I'd say poverty in the USA is in the eye of the beholder and the choices that are made. Education is free and we can't all be president of the company.

[Judee]

I had absolutely no idea in those days that we were poor or in "reduced" circumstances. Everyone in the family always worked and it was a matter of pride that none ever took a single handout or any kind of public assistance. The US Navy doesn't support dependents in very high style, and my family were clerks, waitresses, truck drivers, and such. I was taught to have very polished manners and to appreciate education and above all, that honesty and morality count most of all.

I'd say poverty in the USA is in the eye of the beholder and the choices that are made. Education is free and we can't all be president of the company.


You hit on something that has always bugged me. For quite some time now, we've made young people feel like they are nothing unless they get some kind of a degree, and become a big wage earner in some 'profession'. Like you said Dera, we can't all be president of a company. If that's true, who will pump our gas, or or work in the local hardware store, or wait tables, etc., etc.? It takes more than morons sitting at a big desk to run our society. Why are people made to feel less than successful if they have more menial jobs? It doesn't matter WHAT job you have, as long as you do the best job you can.

[Project]

The issue is not that you can't be happy when below the arbitrary poverty line, it is that kids will experience more problems in general coming from a poor household.

[Project]

and I guess the point that I did not really address is "many children growing up in very poor families with low social status experience unhealthy levels of stress hormones, which impair their neural development"

I don't see a problem with this logic if in fact the tests are done right.

[VOguy]

Having been at both ends, sort-of, there are various social baggage on both ends. The only thing that is overwhelming is that nobody has had a desire to be poor.

But there are many in the world that think they need riches to be happy, and it's myth that money can buy that or even a thread of satisfaction. Ask a lot of lottery winners. :)

Poverty is correctable to some extent, but the mathematics prove that someone will always be at the low end of the scale. The question is, what will the rest of us do to help them. It's not a government or political issue.

[Alpha]

I guess perhaps this begs the question of the holistic high level definition of "poor" and not soley from an economic perspective.

There are many who are economically "rich" yet spiritually, emotionally and humanly poor, as well as the converse of those who are "economically poor" yet spiritually, emotionally and humanly rich....of course with all the various factors and combinations in between.

There are also huge gaps in the economic definition of poor...do we just look at what the current deemed poverty line is for gross income?
Do we look at it from a perspective of are the necessities of life/subsistance maintained i.e. food, shelter, heat, electricity, water, medical care? Do we look at it from not being able to have what the "median" citizen has/earns/owns?

I grew up in what could be deemed a poor household.

My parents were recent immigrants who worked very hard to pay of their mortgage, put food on the table and take care of my grand parents.

I grew up with tattered furniture, few toys, no pop or take out ever, wore hand me down clothes etc., which was a seeming embarrassment then and difficult at the time, when other kids had all the newest, greatest and best, although we always had time to talk, had food on the table.

From my experience I can say, does it make it a bit harder for kids from poor families?....in certain respects yes.

However that said, we all had/have access to a universal education system, there are libraries...most homes regardless of income have TV, radio etc.

One can either decide at a formative age to take the opportunities both our countries give everyone, or fall into a victim cycle of "poor me" with no personal accountability or opportunity if one wants to take it.

Material achievement is only one type of achievement....we all have choices regardless of what hand we are dealt on how we respond to these seeming hurdles or challenges.

Just my 5 cents ;)

[Judee]

II grew up in what could be deemed a poor household.

My parents were recent immigrants who worked very hard to pay of their mortgage, put food on the table and take care of my grand parents.

I grew up with tattered furniture, few toys, no pop or take out ever, wore hand me down clothes etc., which was a seeming embarrassment then and difficult at the time, when other kids had all the newest, greatest and best, although we always had time to talk, had food on the table.

From my experience I can say, does it make it a bit harder for kids from poor families?....in certain respects yes.

However that said, we all had/have access to a universal education system, there are libraries...most homes regardless of income have TV, radio etc.

One can either decide at a formative age to take the opportunities both our countries give everyone, or fall into a victim cycle of "poor me" with no personal accountability or opportunity if one wants to take it.

Material achievement is only one type of achievement....we all have choices regardless of what hand we are dealt on how we respond to these seeming hurdles or challenges.

Just my 5 cents ;)


Hmm... You just described my childhood Alpha! You're not missing a relative are you? :silly:

I went to school with a lot of rich kids, but I never felt 'stressed' because of that. It just made me work harder. If there a lot of stressed out kids because they're from lower income homes, I blame the government - period! They hand out welfare like it will fix everything, leaving generations of welfare families with no hope and no self-respect. What's that old saying (she asks as she butchers it)... 'Give a man a fish and you feed him for one day. Give a man a fishing pole, and he can feed himself forever.' Okay, that's not exactly the saying, but you get my point. Our governments have turned millions of people into reproducing, helpless, hopeless victims of a system that is totally screwed-up! :irked: It's the government that is keeping those poor families poor!!! :maul:

[Project]

It is a hot discussion, but I will just say that laziness is not the first thing I would blame poverty on.

Poverty and poor are relative terms, but well-defined. I would say that it is not being able to afford the essentials, clothing, shelter and nutritious food. This is not the 'official' definition, but I think it works.

You cannot do the above on welfare from my experience, especially not with rent and housing being at the level they are.

[Alpha]

There are many working poor, as there are the lazy poor, the one's who chose and those who do not....with a myrida of circumstance and choice in between....

Actually in many cases, the "working poor" are a lot worse off than the so deemed "lazy or cop out poor"....

As I stated before....guess it depends on what we ubiquitously and all encompassing wise define as "poor".

There is no excuse IMO for anyone on this planet, not to have "the essentials"....food, clothing, shelter, essential medication etc.

We throw away more here in NA each and every day to feed all on the planet. Damn and yes....very hot topic indeed! :)

[Dera]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ga0zHplTG_U
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/7600/musi137fo.gif

[Project]

Mental illness? Physical disability? Old age? Drug addiction?


We throw away more here in NA each and every day to feed all on the planet. I assume you mean 'we the not-as-poor'... and yes, I think we could give more to help fight poverty.

[Alpha]

Mental illness? Physical disability? Old age? Drug addiction?

I assume you mean 'we the not-as-poor'... and yes, I think we could give more to help fight poverty.

Actually P, I'm talking about retail here in Canada.

I have several members of my family who work for grocery retail.

They can't/wont donate blemished produce, day old bread, items at the "best before date" because they are afraid of the law suites that some lawyer will bring it they do...just in case.

It all goes in a dumpster...TONS of it...every day....dry goods, cans, day old bread...you name it.

Their hands are tied to even give it to someone who will cook it, can it, freeze it..at soup kitchen..process or distribute in any way etc.

Think about we all clean out of our fridges every week or month...

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Most of us here I'm sure have no idea what it's really like to be hungry....really hungry....and not just for what we feel like, but that there is nothing even after one goes "dumpster diving" or there is really nothing to eat and no $$ to get anything.

I hope we never do....

[Divinorumus]

... and yes, I think we could give more to help fight poverty.

Give more what? You can't just "give" money and stuff away, that is what created the welfare class in this country in the first place. Rule # 1 should always be: Don't feed the animals. And for good reason. I recommend handling out step-by-step printed instruction books on how everyone else has managed to take care of themselves, and they can emulate what others have done. I think the biggest problem we have are those who get a job at a 7-11 store or McDonalds after finishing high school and think to make that their career and think THAT should provide a living wage. Not! Too many people are where they are because they do not desire to do more to help THEMSELVES. If one wants more, THEY must improve themselves and earn it. There is no gawdamn excuse why anyone should be poor in this country (unless you are a cripple or retarded). Too many people simply won't get up off their asses and do what is required to get what they want from life. There is no law that says anyone must be poor and live in poverty in this country. Who is stopping them from doing what others have done to provide for themselves? This idea of poverty is bogus. The issue is a lack of self motivation with 9 of 10 complainers, and giving them stuff is just playing into their held out hands. If someone is poor in this country, it is certainly by choice. And, we also have a lack of discipline in this country filled with spoiled cry babies (which is why so many feel picking their own food they eat is beneath them). The only people that should have a right to bitch and whine are the cripples.

[Project]

Alpha mentioned stuff we throw away Div, this is what can be given pretty painlessly, and I agree.

[Alpha]

Give more what? You can't just "give" money and stuff away, that is what created the welfare class in this country in the first place. Rule # 1 should always be: Don't feed the animals. And for good reason. I recommend handling out step-by-step printed instruction books on how everyone else has managed to take care of themselves, and they can emulate what others have done. I think the biggest problem we have are those who get a job at a 7-11 store or McDonalds after finishing high school and think to make that their career and think THAT should provide a living wage. Not! Too many people are where they are because they do not desire to do more to help THEMSELVES. If one wants more, THEY must improve themselves and earn it. There is no gawdamn excuse why anyone should be poor in this country (unless you are a cripple or retarded). Too many people simply won't get up off their asses and do what is required to get what they want from life. There is no law that says anyone must be poor and live in poverty in this country. Who is stopping them from doing what others have done to provide for themselves? This idea of poverty is bogus. The issue is a lack of self motivation with 9 of 10 complainers, and giving them stuff is just playing into their held out hands. If someone is poor in this country, it is certainly by choice. And, we also have a lack of discipline in this country filled with spoiled cry babies (which is why so many feel picking their own food they eat is beneath them). The only people that should have a right to bitch and whine are the cripples.

Nature should take care of "the animals" Div......after all we belong to that group and we always have...the survival of the "fittest"...and that is also a loaded term with folks identifying what it, in their paradigm and what that looks like to them/you /me etc.

Perhaps we have to look at how that has forsaken us now....when most of other species adapt and seem to "hunt and survive" for pure substance/ sustenance, yet others don't a a frigging clue of what that is, feels like or looks like. .....change their habits and paradigm...NO -one is entitled to anything, within any system or what life throws at you...it's how one navigates through it, hopefully with heart, soul , compassion and ASWAENESS that really counts...not only for oneself, yet for all others..just perhaps...;)

Most importantly ....we are no more or no less than any other life form....it is our arrogance that will finallly do us in...Just my few cents...

[Divinorumus]

We live in a spoiled society where the real meaning of poverty has been long forgotten. I knew a guy from a few years back that got laid off from his job of 20+ years and claimed he hadn't been able to find work for 6 months. All I could do was laugh and shake my head. Dude, 6 months? Can't you tie your shoes or read or what? I think my comment went like "Certainly there must be a slaughter house somewhere with manure that needs shoveling?" His reaction was most undignified, which was even funnier coming from a guy who thought THAT kind of work was beneath him, undignified, as if sub-humans should work that kind of job. What a little conceited stuck up snot. He eats cow, but thinks others (maybe the Mexicans?) should do all the dirty work so he doesn't have to when eating his cow? Funny how a dose of reality can reveal a creeps true spoiled and conceited colors.

[Captain Beyond]

If we let it, poverty will teach us about humility and the fact that we are most often not in control in this world.

The real key is to realize those few moments when we are in control and take advantage those moments. The rest of the time, we are the slaves!:sigh1:

[VOguy]

It is a hot discussion, but I will just say that laziness is not the first thing I would blame poverty on.

I've met very few whom are truly lazy, but more whom are ignorant of how to succeed. Of the lazy, I can safely say that 100% were trained to be that way by the state. There is some truth to the saying "Teach a man to fish".

[Divinorumus]

I've met very few whom are truly lazy, but more whom are ignorant of how to succeed.

Well, what do you call it when they aren't learning how to succeed then? A lack of self initiative to learn how to succeed is still lazy. Nowadays I see MANY that just aren't applying themselves, and I've heard more lame lazy excuses than you can shake a stick at. You have a whole generation that grew up on the 2 minute instant microwave meal, and now that they have become adults and realize what is really involved in feeding a face they simply can't cope. And it's not because they are retarded or drank Pepsi from a plastic bottle either.