Leaving the Mormon Church

[MuseNoir]

I thought I would start this thread to continue the discussion that Nemo and I started having about leaving the Mormon church... something both Nemo and I share.

I think this is an important discussion, and deserves its own thread.

So as things cross my mind to post here, I will.

This is open to all.... any insight that your own IW former Mormons can share? Any discussion is welcome.

[MuseNoir]

Here is the link to the beginning of the discussion:
http://imaginativeworlds.com/forum/s...hlight=parowan

[VOguy]

Anything you post will be interesting, Muse.

We have a 7th Day church locally, but it's real secretive and people don't like talking theology. For some reason there is a reluctance to talk even about the most minor topics.

As I mentioned before, I find the subject interesting. As you talk to people, and try to apply it to your own religious upbringing, there is that "a-ha" moment when you realize that what they are talking about and what you were taught, are the same thing .... just called, and presented differently!

[MuseNoir]

In the Mormon religion they always say that "families are forever". I am sure you've all seen those bumper stickers.

What it really means is that they believe "Mormon families are forever." When couples get married in the temple, it is a marriage "for time and all eternity" - not "til death do you part." Each child that is born to the couple is part of their forever family... ie: they will be together in the eternities as a family unit.

This is one of the reasons that it is so difficult for a lot of people to leave the church. Not only would you be leaving the religion, but if there is an ounce of belief left in that person, they would think they were disrupting the eternal family unity FOREVER, and that they would be alone. It's a great deal of guilt that is heaped on people that want to leave the church.

[MuseNoir]

Anything you post will be interesting, Muse.

We have a 7th Day church locally, but it's real secretive and people don't like talking theology. For some reason there is a reluctance to talk even about the most minor topics.

As I mentioned before, I find the subject interesting. As you talk to people, and try to apply it to your own religious upbringing, there is that "a-ha" moment when you realize that what they are talking about and what you were taught, are the same thing .... just called, and presented differently!

The thing that might be different about the Mormon church is the secrecy within the church itself. You are given the goal of getting to the temple, to be found "worthy" enough spiritually to go there. But they never tell you what happens there, and anyone that goes through will not talk about it.

My own research over the years tells me there is a lot of Masonic ritual that happens there, and I do know more than a few lifetime Mormons who went to the temple once and never went back. But even they will not talk about it due to the promises they make prior to going through.

Nemo - I am dying to hear about your experiences in the temple. I DO agree with you that spiritual experiences can be valid no matter what the context, however, my issue is with the tie to the Masons and the blood oath that was in the ordinances and then removed a few years back. Did you go there while the blood oath was still going on?

Nemo, if this is too much to handle, just let me know and I won't ask you about anything but will just read what you wish to share, okay?

[Nemo]

Muse, you are an open and innocent person. Honest and straight-forward. I love talking with you about all of this crap. I had no idea the temple service was changed in any way. I went through in the late 70s and again in 1980 when I was married.

There is no doubt that it is all based on Masonry. I remember that I was given a robe, a cap, an apron, shoes and stuff. These were all supposed to represent things Adam and Eve were given in the Garden. You are asked to remove all rings and jewelry. I was told the 'original' name of Adam in the first human language and that he was our father. I was pledged to obey the prophet of the Church and to obey all of God's commandments. I was pledged to serve my wife and only have sex with her. The commandments were your standard biblical Ten Commandments stuff.

But as you say, there were penalties to these pledges. If you told others or broke these commandments you were saying that you want to have curses placed upon you. A couple of the curses was having your throat cut from ear to ear and having your stomach cut out from hip to hip. You were in effect saying that you are willing to have your throat cut out if you should ever stop obeying God. I think this is classic old-school Masonry.

[MuseNoir]

According to this website: http://www.challengemin.org/temple.html the slitting your throat gesture and blood oath was taken out of the temple in 1990.

This is exactly what I was talking about, Nemo.. this kind of ritual... not that I have a problem with ritual, because it can have its place... but it is the secret nature of what goes on in the temple where the members find out what their religion is all about, after it's too late to leave, because they have to take the oath before they go through for the first time.

How many times have you heard someone say, "It's Sacred, not Secret..." --- but it doesn't excuse the fear they inject in their members.

[MuseNoir]

Here is some text from the website link I put up regarding the temple oaths and the changes made over the years:

The following demonstrates the pagan nature of what is considered the "most sacred" part of the temple ritual, how it has changed, and why it has been removed.

The first oath is considered the "First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood" and was printed as follows in 1931:

"We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so; WE AGREE THAT OUR THROATS BE CUT FROM EAR TO EAR AND OUR TONGUES TORN OUT BY THEIR ROOTS." (Temple Mormonism, p. 18)

The wording of this oath was changed for modern Mormons to:

"I, (think of the New Name) covenant that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, and penalty. RATHER THAN DO SO, I WOULD SUFFER MY LIFE TO BE TAKEN."

It is interesting to note that although the wording had been softened, the Officiator in the Temple Ceremony would still demonstrate these instructions prior to the taking of the oath which must be followed by each temple patron:

"The execution of the penalty is represented by placing the thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side."

This oath as well as the representation of the penalty was completely removed April 10, 1990.

The second oath is considered the "Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood" and was printed as follows in 1931:

"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so, WE AGREE TO HAVE OUR BREASTS CUT OPEN AND OUR HEARTS AND VITALS TORN FROM OUR BODIES AND GIVEN TO THE BIRDS OF THE AIR AND THE BEASTS OF THE FIELD." (Temple Mormonism, p. 20)

The wording of this promise was also changed for modern Mormons to:

"I, (think of the first given name), covenant that I will never reveal the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, and penalty. RATHER THAN DO SO, I WOULD SUFFER (all patrons pause and bring right hand to left breast) MY LIFE (patrons draw hand across chest to right breast) TO BE TAKEN" (patrons drop hands to side).

Again, this oath as well as the gruesome gesture was removed April 10, 1990.

The third oath is considered the "First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood" and was recited in these words by early Temple Mormons:

"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. SHOULD WE DO SO, WE AGREE THAT OUR BODIES BE CUT ASUNDER IN THE MIDST AND ALL OUR BOWELS GUSH OUT." (Temple Mormonism, p. 20)

This was later changed to:

"I covenant in the name of the Son that I will never reveal the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or Sign of the Nail, with its accompanying name, sign, and penalty, RATHER THAN DO SO, I WOULD SUFFER MY LIFE (patrons all draw their right thumb quickly across their body) TO BE TAKEN" (patrons all drop both hands to their sides).

This severe penalty along with the gesture was likewise ordered removed by the First Presidency and the Quorum of 12 Apostles April 10, 1990.

Even though the graphic penalties have been removed, all Mormons today will still learn the same secret names, signs, and passwords with a "solemn covenant" never to reveal them to anyone except the Lord when they are tested in heaven.

[MuseNoir]

You truly have to know the "secret handshake" to get into the Celestial Kingdom (the highest level) after this life, and only there can you be in the presence of the Lord... and your eternal Mormon family. Nobody else is allowed.

Don't be fooled - the church has tried very hard to mainstream its image in the past decade or more. Big time public relations campaign. But it's the same at the core.

[Judee]

This is very interesting. Thank you both for sharing this...

[Jon-Marcus]

I'm a little lost here. I was a Mormon from about 1986 to 1989. I was an Aaronic Priest that entire time, almost from the day I joined. But I don't recall taking any oath and have never been to the Temple in Salt Lake.

[MuseNoir]

If you never went to the temple, you would have never taken that oath.

This is a perfect example of the point I am trying to make... Mormons who have not been to the temple don't know what is at the core of the religion, because nobody will talk about it outside the temple.

I have read as much as I can find about it - only ex-Mormons will talk about what happens there, and most of them are reluctant to do so. I keep finding the same things from many different sources, so I think I have a pretty good idea about it now, and it all seems to lead back to Masonic roots.

Jon-Marcus, do you have any insight about the religion or your experience in it?

Speaking for myself only, it was a mix of good and bad, but leaving it was horrible and terrifying - trying to understand the world without that filter. It was a difficult time.

[Jon-Marcus]

If you never went to the temple, you would have never taken that oath.

This is a perfect example of the point I am trying to make... Mormons who have not been to the temple don't know what is at the core of the religion, because nobody will talk about it outside the temple.

I have read as much as I can find about it - only ex-Mormons will talk about what happens there, and most of them are reluctant to do so. I keep finding the same things from many different sources, so I think I have a pretty good idea about it now, and it all seems to lead back to Masonic roots.

Jon-Marcus, do you have any insight about the religion or your experience in it?

Speaking for myself only, it was a mix of good and bad, but leaving it was horrible and terrifying - trying to understand the world without that filter. It was a difficult time.

Unfortunately, I don't. I guess I was what one might call a "lay member" or initiate.
I started off in a church in Copperas Cove Tx. , by Ft. Hood. About 200 - 300 members. There I liked it just fine. Then I moved to Minden, Louisiana, and attended a church with about 60 or so people. Small enough to really get to know everyone ... maybe a little too much. They wanted me to be the sunday school teacher for the 12 and 13 year old boys. Imagine that. Me, a guy who still hasn't fully accepted doctrine teaching kids. The catch was they wanted me to quit smoking. And I did ... for a month. During that time I was at dairy queen, and so was one of the local head guys of the church with his family, having lunch. I heard him say, and I quote; " Well he's got it all over his damn shirt." This was in reference to his 6 year old son. Now this might not sound like a big thing to anyone else, but it annoyed the hell out of me. This guy insisted that I quit smoking and teach the boys, yet he sits there in public and uses a cuss word in front of his kid. Huh? Seems a bit hypocritical to me. That was when I decided that the Mormon church is like any other organized religion ; it's got it's fair share of hypocrites. I don't like hypocrites. That's why I left.