Leaving the Mormon Church

[Divinorumus]

And I think I made a profound discovery that most people would be shocked to the point of burning me at the stake for knowing. But that's another story.

Ah, don't leave us hanging like that. (probably something I don't really need to hear on top of everything else no doubt, right? )

[MuseNoir]

That is interesting, Muse. A lot of interesting books have come out of the BYU faculty. I wonder how some of them keep their jobs.

You know, one thing I am interested in is how many General Authorities have been excommunicated. The last I heard of was Paul Dunn. All the missionaries I ever knew had lots of Paul Dunn tapes. And then I think there was some Mexican/American G.A. who was excommunicated because of his interest in La Raza or some sort of native-American political movement or something. Do you know of these and others???

I don't know the details about Paul Dunn, but do you know about the excommunication of what is now called The September 6?

This was the beginning of officially shutting down any "intellectuals" - these were all good members of the church who wrote books about early church history - they were then excommunicated.

"Elder Boyd K. Packer stated that feminists, homosexuals, and so-called intellectuals were a danger to the church a year after the scholars and authors that comprised the September Six were ex-communicated.

The exommunications of intellectuals who write truthfully about the history of the Mormon church shows a backwards trend among the Mormon leadership which has made great advances in other areas, particularly overcoming racist policies like the ban on people of African descent holding the priesthood.

A List of the September Six
Although the excommunications of the Mormon historians and intellectuals took place in September of 1993, the full church disciplinary procedures extended several months afterwards. Many of the people who were removed from the church membership just published books with Signature Books.

D. Michael Quinn
Maxine Hanks
Paul Toscano
Lavina Fielding Anderson
Lynne Kanavel Whitesides
Avraham Gileadi

Ironically, Signature books was set up in an attempt to increase intellectual debate and scholarship among Mormons."

More info here:

http://mormonism.suite101.com/articl...ectual_decline

[MuseNoir]

Just to clarify things, I left the church at age 19. I am 42 now. I left because there was a "Court of Love" scheduled for me - I was in trouble, and would have had to defend myself in a roomful of Mormon men - long story. Courts of Love generally end in excommunication, and I refused to play the game so I never went back or put myself through such a horrific experience.

When I left the church, I did have some doubts, but I did not leave because I disagreed with the religious beliefs - I left because I sensed corruption in the system. It was only some years later that I delved back into the religion to try to makes sense of all the beliefs and found what I had suspected and more - a religion based on deceipt and corruption of power.

Now I just keep picking the scab because it is fascinating to me - I no longer have an axe to grind with them - but I do like talking to people who have been former members, because, as we are finding out in this thread, what members really know about their own religion is very little.

[Divinorumus]

When I left the church, I did have some doubts, but I did not leave because I disagreed with the religious beliefs - I left because I sensed corruption in the system.

Isn't that perplexing. One would think if anyone really knew god, they could not even dream of corruption. I know if I knew ... for certain, without doubt, without merely having to believe . . . I know I couldn't act knowingly impure (yeah, I know, "What does that mean?" But really, it should be easy to answer if one really knew). oh hell no . . . no, never. no, I couldn't. no matter what. I would be to afraid to. and I wouldn't even desire to do so. Yeah, it leaves me scratching my head too.

[Jon-Marcus]

Ah, don't leave us hanging like that. (probably something I don't really need to hear on top of everything else no doubt, right? )

Another time and thread, please, Div. I don't want to hijack this one.

[VOguy]

Just to clarify things, I left the church at age 19. I am 42 now. I left because there was a "Court of Love" scheduled for me - I was in trouble, and would have had to defend myself in a roomful of Mormon men - long story. Courts of Love generally end in excommunication, and I refused to play the game so I never went back or put myself through such a horrific experience.

Do you mind stating what your "crime" was, that would deserve excommunication?

I find it interesting that in some churches that excommunication can run the gambit from infidelity to something like not tithing as much as someone (in the church) thinks they should.

Case in point, my friend in Dayton was tossed out of his church after someone calculated that he only gave 1% to the church. He made, at the time, six figures. However, he also gave 25% or more to soup kitchens, nondenominational shelters, and also put in a lot of time with the volunteer emergency pilots who did a lot of free work helping people during Katrina.

When you think about it, for someone to say that he didn't do enough, and should be tossed, was pretty asinine.

[MuseNoir]

It's a long story, and I don't know if I am ready to tell it.

[MuseNoir]

Case in point, my friend in Dayton was tossed out of his church after someone calculated that he only gave 1% to the church. He made, at the time, six figures. However, he also gave 25% or more to soup kitchens, nondenominational shelters, and also put in a lot of time with the volunteer emergency pilots who did a lot of free work helping people during Katrina.

When you think about it, for someone to say that he didn't do enough, and should be tossed, was pretty asinine.

Right... he didn't do enough FOR THEM.

[Nemo]

One issue really 'ends' organized religion and the Christian Bible IMHO: homosexuality. Somewhere along the way it became clear that homosexuality is in-born for most people. And if that is the case - and I have no reason to doubt thousands of people who say that it is - then the 'morality' of the Bible is a real sham. That issue alone should end the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church and all the others. Because if a person is 'born this way,' then how could they be blamed or cursed for living out their natural inclinations? REally, in the light of this one issue, I am kind of amazed that any of the big churches are still in operation. Don't people realize the problem?

That is enough to tell me - long ago - that the Mormon Church is just one of many thousands of fake churches - created by man to keep a person under control.

[MuseNoir]

Isn't that perplexing. One would think if anyone really knew god, they could not even dream of corruption. I know if I knew ... for certain, without doubt, without merely having to believe . . . I know I couldn't act knowingly impure (yeah, I know, "What does that mean?" But really, it should be easy to answer if one really knew). oh hell no . . . no, never. no, I couldn't. no matter what. I would be to afraid to. and I wouldn't even desire to do so. Yeah, it leaves me scratching my head too.

It certainly is perplexing, Div.

Fortunately for me, I was 19 when I left... having only known that one religion, and stubborn enough to see what they were about to do to me... and feisty and smart enough to say "enough is enough" - with time to rebuild my spiritual path in a way that resonates with me.

[MuseNoir]

One issue really 'ends' organized religion and the Christian Bible IMHO: homosexuality. Somewhere along the way it became clear that homosexuality is in-born for most people. And if that is the case - and I have no reason to doubt thousands of people who say that it is - then the 'morality' of the Bible is a real sham. That issue alone should end the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church and all the others. Because if a person is 'born this way,' then how could they be blamed or cursed for living out their natural inclinations? REally, in the light of this one issue, I am kind of amazed that any of the big churches are still in operation. Don't people realize the problem?

That is enough to tell me - long ago - that the Mormon Church is just one of many thousands of fake churches - created by man to keep a person under control.

I couldn't agree more, Nemo, but the sad fact is that there is a lot of prejudice out there against the gay community. And a lot of misperceptions. So even though people may have an issue with their choice of organized religion, they do tend to side with it when it comes to validation of their prejudices.

...uh... kind of like how the Mormon church banned blacks from holding the priesthood until 1978.. (1977?).... anyway, as uncomfortable as that made some members, nobody really went against it.

For those of you who don't know, ANY Mormom male holds the priesthood at some level after the age of 12. (Is it 14 or 12?) Someone else can clarify that. But basically, ALL males can. Unless they were black.

WHen that changed, based on a "revelation" by the Prophet, it was a huge deal.. I remember it very clearly.

[Nemo]

Basically, I blame the Bible itself - and Christianity - for the extremes and silliness and absurdity of the Mormon Church. It's always the usual sex stuff. I was a missionary and the head missionary of 200+missionaries. I know that my mission president (an older man who served a two year mission at mission headquarters with his wife) often had to 'counsel' these young boys about masturbating. Constant 'problem.' This is what I mean, just stupid shit that is unnatural and anti-nature and anti-logic. But, I always thought these insane views just came from the Bible itself. I always looked at the Mormon Church as a group of nuts who were just trying to make the insane Bible meaningful somehow. It's a lost cause. The Bible is insane. THAT is the problem.

When I 'came to' regarding my ex-communication from the Church, I also rejected the Bible and Christianity as a whole. In fact, the entire Judeo-Christian basis of our culture. THAT was enlightening!

[VOguy]

I'm not being funny or anything, just curious. You mention that blacks were kind of persona non grata in the Morman faith. Are there any Mexican or Asian Mormans.