Palming Obama...and Hitler

[teresius]

Well, if they are evil, terrorize and kill innocent people, then I couldn't care any less about them. If evil has a secret, and won't willingly confess, I say use whatever means works to get it out of them. I have no compassion for evil, terrorist, murderers, not even soldiers that kill the innocent, not the enemies soldiers, not even ours. Evil deserves to suffer. Then die.

div, you're so quick to judge. you have committed evil in someone else's eyes during the course of your lifetime. probably several times. should you be killed?

[Divinorumus]

should you be killed?

Probably, I've eaten my fair share of cows in the past. But, I've never committed a horrible evil act against another humon. Yeah, I served time in the Army, but I never had to shoot anyone, or drop a bomb .. but I would if the enemy were evil and coming after me .. but I would never drop a bomb in the dark or upon children or innocent non-combatants, even if evil had surrounded themselves with children. Any soldiers, be them in whatever army, that have the blood of the innocent and children upon their hands, will PAY DEARLY for their atrocities .. in their next unfortunate reincarnated lives!

[maryals]

first of all, how many "fundie" muslims do you know? have they told you, personally, that you're evil and that they want you to convert or die? or are you merely repeating something that you've read or heard somewhere else?
secondly, you say that their belief (that we're evil) has nothing to do with "our actions." what you fail to consider are the actions of our government. maybe some of the terrorists' families were killed with us weapons supplied to saddam. who knows? not me and not you. now, please don't get me wrong; I'm not condoning terrorism AT ALL. if these people are terrorists targeting civilians, let's give them their day in court, show our evidence, let them defend themselves and, IF CONVICTED, dispose of them in the most humane way possible.
as for the "extreme measures" that you say should be taken (I'm assuming that you're referring to torture again) but NOT LEGALIZED: where would you find "interrogators" to keep coming forward, torturing people, and then "taking the fall?" do you assume that we have an over-abundance of people that are skilled enough to do the job and are just waiting to spend a llllloooooonnnnngggg time in prison? does that really make sense to you?
and none of your points address the scariest part of this whole scenario (for me, at least); our government is "disappearing" people. like the black shirts in italy in W.W.II. they don't have to have ANY EVIDENCE. they don't have to tell anyone where you went, as a matter of fact, the sop appears to be to deny any knowledge at all. if that doesn't scare the pants off of you, then you really must not understand the implications.
and div, you're just being silly.
who's to say if these people are evil? who's to say if they're guilty of anything? have you seen the evidence against the people in gitmo?
if we're going to have an honest discussion, first we must be honest with ourselves.

More specious arguments, you use "Argument Tactics" to win, not engage in discussion.
No, I do not personally know any Muslim Fundies. Do you personally know someone who was killed in a plane crash? If not, why do you believe the stories and pictures in the Media? Do you personally know someone who died of a drug overdose? If not then why do you believe the News Stories? The list goes on teresius.

I don't know how many Interrogators would be willing to come forth and then "fall on the sword". Such people exist, separate from my ability to give you a number.

"and none of your points address the scariest part of this whole scenario (for me, at least); our government is "disappearing" people. like the black shirts in italy in W.W.II. they don't have to have ANY EVIDENCE. they don't have to tell anyone where you went, as a matter of fact, the sop appears to be to deny any knowledge at all. if that doesn't scare the pants off of you, then you really must not understand the implications."

I didn't say anything about this because it had not been brought up, in this Topic Thread, before now. Yes, it does scare the pants off me. Government contracts to sleaze ball Mercenary outfits like Wackenhut and Blackwater scare the hell out me.

Mary and Bessie

[Judee]

Man torturing man is a fiend beyond description. You turn a corner in the dark and there he is. You congeal into a bundle of inanimate fear. You become the very soul of anesthesia. But there is no escaping him. It is your turn now... Henry Miller (1891-1980) American author.



There is only one thing that arouses animals more than pleasure, and that is pain. Under torture you are as if under the dominion of those grasses that produce visions. Everything you have heard told, everything you have read returns to your mind, as if you were being transported, not toward heaven, but toward hell. Under torture you say not only what the inquisitor wants, but also what you imagine might please him, because a bond (this, truly, diabolical) is established between you and him. Umberto Eco 1929-, Italian Novelist and critic


Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the TORTURE and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself. James A. Froude 1818-1894, British Historian

[Divinorumus]

first of all, how many "fundie" muslims do you know? have they told you, personally, that you're evil and that they want you to convert or die?

If they are beholding to the Qur’an, then yes. What is this, if not a boat of evil wicked crapola?

"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers ..." I don't care if they call that fun, funny, or fundie, but I call it evil! "For the unbelievers are unto you open enemies." ??? "For the unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment." ??? "O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?" ??? "They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment." ??? "I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." ??? "and the unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell" ??? "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed." ??? "Soon will a grievous penalty seize the unbelievers among them." ??? "O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." ??? "...and the end of unbelievers in the Fire." ??? "Those endued with knowledge will say: "This Day, indeed, are the unbelievers covered with shame and misery,-" ??? ?And We shall present Hell that day for unbelievers to see, all spread out ..."

Listen, I could go on and on, but what's the point? This is all some pretty wicked evil crap, and I don't trust anyone that is beholding to anything such as "And We shall present Hell that day for unbelievers to see, all spread out .." I say, waterboard them until they knock this threatening crap off.

"If only the unbelievers knew (the time) when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor yet from their backs, and (when) no help can reach them!" ??? "Never think thou that the unbelievers are going to frustrate ((Allah)'s Plan) on earth: their abode is the Fire,- and it is indeed an evil refuge!" ??? "Therefore listen not to the unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." ??? "Verily Allah has cursed the unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,- " ???

It goes on and on and on. Screw these evil wicked monkeys and their disgusting wicked vile b.s. beliefs. Anyone beholding to these kinds of beliefs are evil people, and I haven't any problem with torturing them into changing their minds about all this crap! Or preparing a blazing fire for THEM before they prepare one for ME! They are full of b.s. and evil if they think and believe this shit! If this is what they believe and are beholding to, I say torch them first!

[Project]

Propaganda is hard to resist, and your country is the best at it after all. Someday, maybe in another life, try to get over your government-instilled fear and strike up a conversation with an "outsider who wants to kill you just for your beliefs and lifestyle". I can pretty much assure you it will be enlightening.

Oh, and div, take the bible and do the same thing

[Biker]

Propaganda is hard to resist, and your country is the best at it after all. Someday, maybe in another life, try to get over your government-instilled fear and strike up a conversation with an "outsider who wants to kill you just for your beliefs and lifestyle". I can pretty much assure you it will be enlightening.

Oh, and div, take the bible and do the same thing

Really? America is the best at propaganda? Better than the Arab counties? Better than Israel? Better than Russia?

Provide some kind of proof or logic, if you can and will.

Biker

[teresius]

Really? America is the best at propaganda? Better that the Arab counties? Better than Israel? Better than Russia?

Provide some kind of proof or logic, if you can and will.

Biker

have you ever noticed the difference between bbc news and the news that we get here? here's a snippet from the associated press website:
"The Associated Press is the backbone of the world's information system serving thousands of daily newspaper, radio, television and online customers with coverage in all media and news in all formats. It is the largest and oldest news organization in the world, serving as a source of news, photos, graphics, audio and video."
". AP is owned by its 1,500 U.S. daily newspaper members. They elect a board of directors that directs the cooperative."
in a very literal sense, there's really no denying that america is #1 at propaganda. we are a world-wide media powerhouse. we have made "the american dream" a global mis-nomer. advertising is propaganda. surely a reasonable gent such as yourself can see this is true.
div, i would echo project's point above. religions are just man-made, mere artifice. we cannot hope to explain the mind and will of god with simple words, so any organized religion must fall short. for many, it's a starting place and not the destination, so i can't begrudge them that. it seems silly to me to condemn the entire religion just because some have been manipulated with it to commit atrocious acts.

More specious arguments, you use "Argument Tactics" to win, not engage in discussion.

you keep using that word "specious" like it's some kind of defense. first with judee and now with me. let's be clear. i've known a few devout muslims. they were very peaceful and in touch with themselves and expressed nothing but love and tolerance. i know that this is not the case with all muslims. so what? if you'd like a real example of a specious argument, look to your "hyperbole" that you mentioned earlier. i'd imagine that we can agree that we shouldn't stoop to the level of the terrorists. so is there any real point in comparing what some nutjobs (who happened to be muslims) did to some americans (ie, chopping off heads) and what we do to them (ie waterboarding)? no, there's really no point. see? it looks like a plausible argument when you first look at it (that's because of the extreme visceral reaction, i believe), but it's really completely inconsequential and almost diversionary.
and finally, i don't really like to think of it in terms of "winning" or "losing" at all. i like to think that i use logic, facts, and analytical thinking to persuade others out of their emotional, knee-jerk stances. if it gives you a moment's pause, i'd be happy. and it was very nice of you to admit that you think that i'm winning.

[teresius]

and, just one quickie for div:
“God fills the heart of him with faith and contentment who, having the power to avenge himself, exercises restraint and tolerance.” (Abu Da’ud, Hadith no. 4147)

[teresius]

and here's one that i'd love to hear maryals answer:
if, as you believe, torture is not only acceptable sometimes, but necessary, WHY NOT MAKE SOME LEGAL ALLOWANCE FOR IT? why should it be illegal at all? why should we try to exploit legal loopholes by having these "detention centers" in other countries or on ships that cruise in international waters? if it's right, why wouldn't you want it to be legal?

[Divinorumus]

and, just one quickie for div:
“God fills the heart of him with faith and contentment who, having the power to avenge himself, exercises restraint and tolerance.” (Abu Da’ud, Hadith no. 4147)

You're assuming that is true. You are presuming and dictating you KNOW what god is and isn't, aren't you? I can not make that presumption. In fact, I refuse to stipulate or dictate that I presume to know anything about any possible god. What you just said is no different than presuming you know what I am about, be it your own thought, or thoughts you picked up from someone else's presumptions. I presume none of that. I have no clue if there is a god and/or what that god is all about. It might even be an abomination to make such presumptions about any god.

[teresius]

You're assuming that is true. You are presuming and dictating you KNOW what god is and isn't, aren't you? I can not make that presumption. In fact, I refuse to stipulate or dictate that I presume to know anything about any possible god. What you just said is no different than presuming you know what I am about, be it your own thought, or thoughts you picked up from someone else's presumptions. I presume none of that. I have no clue if there is a god and/or what that god is all about. It might even be an abomination to make such presumptions about any god.

have you abandoned reason altogether? i make no assumptions. i don't claim that the quote that i used is a true statement (although it resonates with me). i was merely juxtaposing quran verse to show that it's not all about killing and war. as project said and i reiterated, you could do this with the bible as well. back and forth, all day long. what's the point? as maryals would say, "it's a specious argument."
edited to add:
in earlier posts, you assert that you know what evil is. wouldn't that necessitate some knowledge of god? how would one ultimately define good and evil in a divine vacuum?

[Divinorumus]

.... it's not all about killing and war.

I don't care if it's only a little bit about killing .. I spit on it all until the day they remove all that crap from their version of spirituality. I will not respect anything that demands compliance and invokes threats. Spirituality for me is all that which is good and pure. Spirituality to me has nothing to do with eternal damnation and beheadings and forced worship and compliance. All religions SUCK and can kiss my excretion hole, and so can their make-believe god(s).