Page 1 of 33 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 423

Thread: Universal Health Care - A Human Right or A Tiered or Privileged System? - US Health Care Bill

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    North of Midnight on Planet Wingnut
    Posts
    83,970

    Universal Health Care - A Human Right or A Tiered or Privileged System? - US Health Care Bill

    Universal Health Care - A Human Right or A Tiered or Privileged System?

    We had many chats on the forum over the years about this topic, although we've never had a specific thread (atleast that I can find ) that put it all in one place.

    Here in Canada, we have "socialized medicare". Our members in the US and globally have other systems.

    Although we pay much more for everything here in Canada, no one here, rich or poor, whether they have private insurance or not, will be denied any/all necessary health care they require, with a few exclusions, dental being one of them.

    In other parts of this planet, we see and hear about entire countries, nationalities, being basically left to suffer and die, where there is treatment and cure, that the pharmaceutical cartel, or more affluent nations could assist with: leprosy, AIDs, ebola, TB etc.

    My mom recently went through 2 mastectomies due cancer. All of her surgery, treatment, care pre and post was covered by the Health Care System here. Now then here's just one story of thousands ++ where...well read it for yourselves:

    Legal Loophole Ensnares
    Breast-Cancer Patients


    Shirley Loewe Chooses
    The Wrong Clinic
    And Starts Long Ordeal

    By JOHN CARREYROU
    September 13, 2007



    LONGVIEW, Texas -- In June 2003, Shirley Loewe went to Good Shepherd Medical Center here with a softball-size lump in her breast and was diagnosed with a rare form of breast cancer. She didn't know it, but she had just made a big mistake.


    Ms. Loewe was uninsured. Under federal law, she could have gotten Medicaid coverage -- and saved herself a lot of hardship -- if she'd gone to a different clinic less than a half-mile away.

    But by walking through Good Shepherd's doors, Ms. Loewe unwittingly let that opportunity slip and embarked on a four-year journey through the Byzantine U.S. health-care system.

    It was an odyssey that would take her to five hospitals, two clinics, two charitable organizations and two nursing homes in two states. She was denied assistance or care at least six times along the way, for reasons that ranged from not being poor enough to not being sick enough.

    Ms. Loewe eventually got treatment, but at personal cost and great aggravation. To qualify for charity assistance, she had to reduce her $15,000-a-year income as a hairdresser by cutting back on her working hours and giving up her home. Later, she lucked into first-class care thanks to a serendipitous encounter at a Little League game.

    Ms. Loewe is one of thousands of women who get caught in a loophole in the Breast and Cervical Cancer Prevention and Treatment Act each year. Under the little-known law passed by Congress in 2000, uninsured women under age 65 who are diagnosed with breast or cervical cancer can have their treatment covered by Medicaid, the government-funded health program for the poor, even if they don't meet all of its eligibility criteria.

    But the law gives states an escape hatch. Rather than provide coverage to all comers, states can choose to cover only those diagnosed at clinics that get funding from a federal cancer-detection program. Texas chose the more restrictive option.

    After cancer activist groups lobbied its legislature, Texas recently changed its version of the law to cover women diagnosed by any health provider starting Sept. 1. But 21 states continue to exclude patients diagnosed outside the federal cancer-detection program.



    Niko Ferguson sits with her mother, Shirley Loewe.

    The Treatment Act loophole is just one of a number of cracks in the patchwork of laws and regulations that govern the U.S. health-care system. Crafted by lawmakers to save money, these coverage gaps can turn the quest for care into a daunting obstacle course for the country's 45 million uninsured when serious illness strikes. Perhaps nowhere is the problem as stark as in Texas, where one in four residents lacks health insurance -- the highest proportion of uninsured in the nation.

    A California native, Ms. Loewe was a free spirit. In the 1970s, she lived in a cabin in the Sierra Nevada mountains with her husband and her two children, a boy and a girl. Tragedy befell the family when the boy died from croup, a respiratory illness that afflicts young children. Ms. Loewe later divorced and moved to East Texas, settling in this small, working-class city. She worked long hours at Today's Cuts, a local hair salon, to make ends meet. Like many uninsured Americans, she went without health insurance because her employer didn't offer any and she couldn't afford it on her own.

    Fear and Denial

    Ms. Loewe first noticed a nickel-sized mass in her left breast in early 2003, according to her medical records. But she was distracted by the death of her father that spring. Her lack of insurance, combined with the fear and denial experienced by many cancer patients, also made her put off a doctor visit. By the time she showed up in late June at the emergency room at Good Shepherd, one of two hospitals in Longview, the mass had grown to nearly four inches in diameter.

    Ms. Loewe earned too much to get Medicaid in Texas the regular way, but she would have qualified for it under the Treatment Act had she been diagnosed by the Wellness Center, a nearby clinic that participates in the federal cancer-detection program. Good Shepherd could have referred her there, but instead it sent her to Byron Cook, a staff surgeon. Dr. Cook diagnosed Ms. Loewe with inflammatory breast cancer, a rare and aggressive cancer that is often fatal, and referred her to a local oncology clinic, the Longview Cancer Center.

    A Good Shepherd executive says the hospital didn't know about the Treatment Act. A spokesman for the Texas Department of State Health Services says it relies on participating clinics to get the word out. "I don't want to get into a game of finger-pointing because that's not useful to anyone," the Texas spokesman says.

    TEXAS' NEW LEGISLATION

    "A woman who received a breast or cervical cancer screen service under Title XV of the Public Health Service Act and who otherwise meets the eligibility requirements for medical assistance for treatment of breast or cervical cancer as provided by Subsection (y) is eligible for medical assistance under that subsection, regardless of whether federal Medicaid matching funds are available for that medical assistance. A screening service of a type that is within the scope of screening services under that title is considered to be provided under that title regardless of whether the service was provided by a provider who receives or uses funds under that title."
    -- Texas Bill No. 1696, which took effect Sept. 1, 2007

    Michelle Trich, the Wellness Center's executive director, says the clinic does community outreach, but doesn't know of any specific effort to get neighboring Good Shepherd to refer patients to the clinic.

    With no means to pay for medical bills, Ms. Loewe went to her county's indigent clinic. The only assets she listed were $40 in cash and $60 in a checking account, but her application was rejected. Her most recent paycheck showed she had earned $7,096.02 in the first 5½ months of the year. That translated into an annual income far higher than the $8,980-a-year limit imposed by the county's charity guidelines for a single adult.


    So Ms. Loewe cut back her hours to reduce her income. No longer able to afford her rent of $400 a month, she moved out of her apartment and rented a travel trailer from a friend for $200 a month.


    Meanwhile, Lewis Duncan, an oncologist at the Longview Cancer Center, started Ms. Loewe on a classic treatment regimen of chemotherapy drugs, provided free by the drug makers' patient-assistance programs. On Aug. 4, 2003, she reapplied for charity assistance at the county clinic. With her lower wages, Ms. Loewe was approved, and the county began to pay for her treatment.


    The county also agreed to pay for an antidepressant. Family members say Ms. Loewe felt helpless and afraid. Her daughter, Niko Ferguson, who lives in Denver, says her mother would often cry when they talked on the phone.


    Ms. Loewe's sister, Tonna Day, who lives in the neighboring town of Gladewater, says Ms. Loewe desperately wanted to be treated at the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, the world-renowned cancer hospital in Houston. Mrs. Day says Ms. Loewe thought she would stand a better chance there.


    She may have been right. Last year, M.D. Anderson opened the world's first dedicated clinic for inflammatory breast cancer. The hospital's five-year survival rate for the disease is over 40%. The national five-year survival rate is a little above 30%.


    Ms. Loewe called M.D. Anderson but was told she needed a referral from her oncologist. She asked Dr. Duncan for the referral, but he refused, Mrs. Day says.


    Dr. Duncan says he knew from experience that M.D. Anderson didn't take charity-case referrals unless the patient's diagnosis was unusual and the treatment couldn't be handled locally. Contacting it about Ms. Loewe "would have been a waste of time," he says.


    A spokesman for M.D. Anderson says the cancer hospital does accept in-state referrals of charity cases regardless of the type of diagnosis. Had Ms. Loewe been covered by Medicaid, she would have stood an even better chance of admission; M.D. Anderson treats Medicaid patients no differently than those who are covered by private insurance.


    Frustrated and confused, Ms. Loewe searched on the Internet and contacted an advocacy group called Native American Cancer Research, which fights cancer among Indian tribes. From her mother Ms. Loewe had inherited membership in the Oklahoma-based Chickasaw tribe.
    Linda Burhansstipanov, NACR's president, says she first tried to requalify Ms. Loewe for Medicaid through the Treatment Act by suggesting she get screened at a program clinic for cervical cancer. But the effort was rejected by the Texas health department. The department spokesman says that would be tantamount to Medicaid fraud.


    Later, as NACR was trying other avenues of help, Ms. Loewe phoned in tears because the county indigent clinic suspended its assistance, alleging she had ramped up her working hours, Ms. Burhansstipanov says. NACR intervened and got her reinstated. A supervisor at the county clinic says there's no record of Ms. Loewe being dropped from the county welfare rolls during that time.
    Mrs. Day recalls visiting her sister around this time and being shocked by Ms. Loewe's living conditions. The 24-foot trailer was leaking gas and Ms. Loewe was complaining about a violent headache, which Mrs. Day figured was caused by the leak. "I told her: 'For Pete's sake, come live with us,' " Mrs. Day remembers. At first, Ms. Loewe wouldn't hear of it. But she wept, relented and moved in with her sister and brother-in-law that night.


    After four months of chemotherapy, Ms. Loewe's tumor had shrunk by half but wouldn't get any smaller. Her doctors decided it was time for a mastectomy. Dr. Cook's office repeatedly asked Ms. Loewe how the operation would be paid for, according to Mrs. Day and Ms. Burhansstipanov. He finally scheduled the surgery in early November 2003 after receiving a consent fax from the county saying it would cover the costs.


    Ms. Loewe's daughter, Mrs. Ferguson, flew in from Colorado to be with her mother for the operation. Mrs. Ferguson, who works as a nurse, noticed her mother and the surgeon weren't getting along, and became alarmed when Dr. Cook referred to removing the wrong breast the day before the surgery.


    Dr. Cook says he doesn't remember the incident. He says Ms. Loewe got first-rate care and that she simply waited too long before getting the lump in her breast checked out. "She didn't exactly seek what you call early attention," he says.


    The surgery went smoothly. Ms. Loewe underwent radiation therapy for five months until April 2004, when she went into remission. She returned to work full-time at Today's Cuts and moved back into an apartment next to the one she had once lived in.


    The reprieve was short-lived. Three months later, Mrs. Ferguson noticed her mother was having trouble talking when they were on the phone. Mrs. Day took her sister back to Good Shepherd. The news wasn't good: Ms. Loewe's cancer had returned and metastasized to the brain, where it had spawned a tumor. The hospital gave Ms. Loewe only a few months to live.


    Convinced Ms. Loewe wasn't receiving top-quality care, Mrs. Ferguson decided to bring her mother to Denver. Ms. Loewe moved in with her daughter's family in a Denver suburb. She slept on a donated mattress on the floor of her grandson's room.


    But the move brought new complications. Ms. Loewe applied for Medicaid coverage in Colorado, but she was told the process could take as long as a year because she needed to establish residency in the state, her daughter and Ms. Burhansstipanov say.


    A spokeswoman for the Colorado Department of Healthcare Policy and Financing, which administers the state's Medicaid program, says she has no idea why Ms. Loewe was told that. States are required by federal law to act on a patient's application within 45 days and there is no time delay to establish residency.


    THE BREAST AND CERVICAL CANCER PREVENTION AND TREATMENT ACT OF 2000

    Passed by Congress on Oct. 24, 2000, the law was intended to provide Medicaid coverage to uninsured women with breast or cervical cancer who didn't meet all of Medicaid's eligibility criteria, such as income limits. (Read the law.)

    Congress gave states the option to implement the law either generously or more restrictively. Under the generous but more costly option, states can grant Medicaid coverage to all comers regardless of where their cancer is diagnosed. Under the more restrictive option, they can deny coverage to women diagnosed outside a federal cancer-detection program. Twenty-two states chose to do the latter. One of them, Texas, switched to the more generous option Sept. 1.
    Created in 1990, the federal cancer-detection program, known as the National Breast and Cervical Cancer Early Detection Program, is funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and administered by state health departments. Its reach is limited: The $190 million annual budget is enough to serve only 15% of uninsured women eligible for breast-cancer screening; and its services are available only through participating health providers.

    There are about 200 such providers across Texas. In Longview, the participating provider is the Wellness Center. The clinic is located less than half a mile from Good Shepherd Medical Center, the hospital where Shirley Loewe was diagnosed with breast cancer in June 2003.
    Under Texas' original version of the law, patients like Ms. Loewe had to have at least part of their cancer diagnosis performed, or paid for, by a participating clinic to qualify for Medicaid coverage. Because she was diagnosed at Good Shepherd and not the nearby Wellness Center, Ms. Loewe couldn't qualify. Getting re-screened at the Wellness Center after already being diagnosed somewhere else would have been considered Medicaid fraud.

    Through her contacts in the Denver medical community, Mrs. Ferguson found a neurosurgeon, J.D. Day, who was willing to operate on her mother free. But the hospital where Dr. Day performed his surgeries, Swedish Medical Center, refused to make its facilities available unless Ms. Loewe or her family paid $90,000 up front, Mrs. Ferguson says. Mrs. Ferguson and her husband, who is also a nurse, had only a few thousand dollars in the bank.


    Dr. Day, who is now an associate professor of neurosurgery at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, confirms Mrs. Ferguson's account. A spokeswoman at Swedish Medical Center says the hospital has no record of Ms. Loewe seeking admission. "It's not consistent with the way we handle these cases every day," she says.


    Dr. Day's office referred Mrs. Ferguson to the Colorado Neurological Institute, a charity organization for patients with brain illnesses that has a partnership with Swedish Medical Center. While talking on the phone to a social worker at the institute, Mrs. Ferguson remembers expressing frustration over her mother's situation. She says the social worker replied: "People die every day waiting for the system to catch up. Why is your mother any different?" Mrs. Ferguson says she broke down in tears.
    Luanne Williams, the institute's executive director, says what the social worker told Mrs. Ferguson is "unfortunately a true statement, but I agree that it was an insensitive thing to say to a person in that situation."


    Mrs. Ferguson next tried the Denver Health Medical Center, a county hospital that provides charity care to numerous uninsured patients. She was told that her mother couldn't qualify for indigent care there because her house was located in a different county.


    Mrs. Ferguson then contacted the University of Colorado Hospital and argued that her mother's case was an emergency. She says the university hospital told her it was under no obligation to admit Ms. Loewe because her brain tumor resulted from a pre-existing condition -- breast cancer -- and therefore didn't qualify as an "emergency medical condition."
    Unwilling to take no for an answer, Mrs. Ferguson recalls putting the following scenario to the hospital: What if her mother stopped taking her antiseizure medication and went into a coma? Wouldn't it have to treat her then? Mrs. Ferguson says the hospital replied that in such a scenario, it would stabilize Ms. Loewe and then discharge her.


    A spokeswoman at the University of Colorado Hospital says illnesses like cancer aren't considered emergency conditions under the strict sense of federal statutes against patient-dumping. "We frankly do not have the financial resources to provide care to medically indigent patients whose conditions are not immediately life- or limb-threatening," she added in an emailed statement.


    Mrs. Ferguson, who is personally opposed to universal health care because she thinks it would lower the quality of care, was discouraged. "I remember thinking: 'How can they let her die just because she doesn't have health insurance in this state?' " she says.
    In early August, Mrs. Ferguson brought Ms. Loewe, who could no longer be left alone, to one of her son's Little League games. The mother of a teammate, Kelly Fulton, noticed Ms. Loewe on the sidelines. Mrs. Fulton was the former administrative director of a neurosurgery group at another Denver hospital, St. Anthony Central. Her husband, Matt Fulton, used to be the hospital's chief executive officer.


    The Fultons put Mrs. Ferguson in touch with John Nichols, a neurosurgeon at St. Anthony Central. Dr. Nichols agreed to see Ms. Loewe right away. His prognosis was much more upbeat than the one she had been given in Texas. And unlike Swedish Medical Center, St. Anthony agreed to take Ms. Loewe on free. On Aug. 17, Dr. Nichols operated on her and removed most of the tumor.


    On Oct. 13, 2004, nearly three months after she applied, Colorado granted Ms. Loewe Medicaid coverage and covered the costs of the surgery retroactively. The following month, she returned to St. Anthony for treatment under a Gamma Knife, a machine that emits powerful gamma rays, to dissolve what was left of the tumor. The procedure was a success.


    Over the following 18 months, Ms. Loewe had several recurrences of cancer in her chest, but she went into remission after more rounds of chemotherapy and radiation. In May 2006, body and brain scans came back clear. Once unable to talk, Ms. Loewe fully recovered her speech and was able to function autonomously.


    Tired of the cold Rocky Mountain weather and missing her friends, Ms. Loewe persuaded her daughter to let her move back to Texas. She rented an apartment in Gladewater near her sister's house and went back to work at Today's Cuts. Ms. Loewe's daughter bought her a used Chevy Cavalier. Ms. Loewe reapplied for Medicaid coverage in Texas and this time got it promptly. Life went back to normal.


    But last spring, the cancer came back with a vengeance. An MRI showed numerous tumors in Ms. Loewe's brain, and she went into steep neurological decline. This time no surgery would make a difference.


    Battle With Bureaucracy

    Ms. Loewe's battle with the health-care bureaucracy wasn't quite over, though. She underwent radiation in Tyler, Texas, to ease her pain and after 21 days was transferred to a Gladewater nursing home. Medicaid covered the Gladewater nursing home but wouldn't pay for Tyler.


    Medicare, the federal program for the elderly that also provides coverage to disabled people, would pay for only the first 20 days in Tyler. Mrs. Loewe's daughter wound up paying for the extra day -- $124. (Medicaid eventually reimbursed her for most of it).


    On a late June morning, Ms. Loewe lay in bed, emaciated and writhing in pain. Her left arm and hand were swollen to three times their size from lymphedema, a side effect of her breast surgery. Embarrassed by her appearance, she hid the huge black scar left on the top of her head by her brain surgery under a grey beret.


    She reacted little when told that her ordeal could have been avoided had she gone to a different clinic back in 2003. "It's very complicated when you don't have health insurance," she whispered. "I really don't understand it much."


    Ms. Loewe died on June 25 at age 55. Her daughter sold her car to pay for her cremation.

    -------------------------

    So what's the answer folks...what do you thing about what health care should be...a Human Right, one that only those can afford to pay for should receive...something in between?

    The above article is only one example and perhaps not the best one....let's hear your thoughts!

    Do unto Others as you would have them do unto you



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Not here!
    Posts
    14,403
    Universal Health Care - A Human Right or A Tiered or Privileged System?
    This whole topic makes me nervous, particularly the part where it says "Human Right,"

    I can understand how life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, for example, can be a right because those things do not impose a burden or expectation upon another to grant ourselves those rights. But other things, such as this (so-called) universal health care, could not possibly ever be called a "right" because that would impose a burden, a demand, upon another. An enslavement. Anyone saying THAT should be a right is calling for the enslavement of others to provide that non-natural (or in religious terms: non-god-given) right. Your "right" can not cause the denial of another persons freedom. What if some don't want to play and pay for that (so-called) right? Your right should not deny another persons freedom nor put a burden upon them.

    I think our expectations have gotten out of hand and soon iPods for all may become another talked about right some day. "Oh the poor iPodless." If all these things are to be a "right", how can we then deny these rights to everyone else in the world? Shouldn't we include them too? They are humans deserving the same rights too then, right?

    If you want universal health care, do it without enslaving others to provide and pay for that make-believe right. What next? Universal Food Care? "Hey you, be my farmer and provider, I have a 'right' to universal food."

    (shakes head ~ the world is headed towards doom)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,462
    Well! This a momentous occasion, Div! I actually agree with you 100%!


    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." ~ Ronald Reagan

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Corner of walk & don't walk
    Posts
    8,329
    I sometimes think that people feel they are entitled to everything without investing in themselves. Personally I think humanity has a lot of prioritizing to do, then a responsibility to weed out those who profit from the manipulation of the heath industry.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    North of Midnight on Planet Wingnut
    Posts
    83,970
    C'mon Div...we've been "enslaved" for centuries and beyond....

    What the hell does I iPod have to do with any of this???

    My family works for the retail grocery industry.

    Do you know how much food they put in a dumpster each and every day that could feed a multitude of people?!?!?

    What about "the burden and demand" of the working folks who pay taxes for war among a plethora of things without a second thought, that adds up to diddly squat !?

    Denial for "another persons' freedoms"???

    What??..the freedom for the have's vs. the have nots.

    Guess we should all be happy that we can afford to be on the net, eat and live however we want, within the current economics and dillude ourselves that it's because others ..somewhere out there producing stuff for ChinaMart, who allow us to do so....living in squalor...but hey...who gives a rat's ass.

    We enable the enslavement of others...just by that attitude!!

    Hell, I'm too hot right now, so I'll revisit this thread later...

    Type I civilization anytime soon...no way.

    There isn't enough empathy and compassion globally on this planet to ever make it work...seems to me, as long as I'm o.k ..., whatever that means to anyone else here there or anywhere, individually, as long as it doesn't affect me.... F**k everyone else...

    Do unto Others as you would have them do unto you



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Not here!
    Posts
    14,403
    I'm not without understanding nor compassion concerning this topic, but I do believe our expectations have run amok and THAT is leading us all into self-enslavement in a society that we can't live without and yet is designed to eventually self-destruct.

    I find it alarming when someone hopes for an expensive medical procedure to be paid for by another while they get to demand to keep all their goodies and stuff while another is made to pay. Personally, I would trade all my stuff in for any necessary medical care before expecting someone else be taxed and forced to pay. (would you like to one day see someone else loose their home because they can't pay their universal health care tax to pay for your new heart?) And after that I'd borrow what I could before forcing anyone else to pay my way. For personal moral reasons, some may not want to play the "we will make you pay" games. Some may want to be left alone to play and pay their own way through life, and voluntarily helping others when they can. To enslave ourselves for a right is not a right because it violates our first three given rights!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,462
    Universal Health Care - Not for me, thanks.

    Socialism
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Wikipedia reference-linkSocialism

    Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community for the purposes of increasing social and economic equality and cooperation. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by state or community ownership of the means of production.


    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." ~ Ronald Reagan

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Not here!
    Posts
    14,403
    Personal freedom is something I'm very guarding of, thus when I hear those calling for another so-called right that means I'm gonna have to get up and do something for someone again, I will always raise a cautionary flag of warning. Beware, you could be allowing yourselves to be manipulated into self-enslavement. "Oh big brother, take care of us, tell US what to do!" (hell no! no more! down with governing governments)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,462
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan

    "Hillarycare", a comprehensive plan to provide universal health care for all Americans, which was to be a cornerstone of the Clinton administration's first-term agenda, didn't make it.

    Op-eds were written against it, including one in The Washington Post by University of Virginia Professor Martha Derthick that said:

    In many years of studying American social policy, I have never read an official document that seemed so suffused with coercion and political naivete ... with its drastic prescriptions for controlling the conduct of state governments, employers, drug manufacturers, doctors, hospitals and you and me.

    Please, God.
    save us from that kind of crap in the future.


    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." ~ Ronald Reagan

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    4,721
    The fear of "socialism" is bordering paranoia when it comes to national health care. How anybody could think that making a profit is more important than human life or suffering, is competely beyond me. Just can't wrap my brain around that one.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    485
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcnowhere View Post
    The fear of "socialism" is bordering paranoia when it comes to national health care. How anybody could think that making a profit is more important than human life or suffering, is competely beyond me. Just can't wrap my brain around that one.
    The real question isn't whether it's done for profit or from a sense of compassion; it comes down to who will decide what care is available. Once the government gets control the health care system will be run with the same efficiency as any other government bureaucracy. If you want to see what it will be like take a look at the way the Veterans Administration in the US runs their hospitals. No thanks.
    We're all butterflies flapping our wings and changing the world.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Not here!
    Posts
    14,403
    People want such rights? Put the costs up front on something that's also not a right, such as a Hilaryous Care Tax on non-essentials. Want an iToy? Fine, $200, plus a "Hilaryous right" tax of $1,300. Those that don't want to play into big brothers arms can then freely avoid doing so. Put the costs upfront instead of burying it, and leave it voluntarily optional. Enslavement of others will only cause them to leave. I don't want to find myself wanting to sneak into Mexico to escape the Socialist captured and enslaved USA. Who would ever think we one day might long to live in Russia someday, ha.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcnowhere View Post
    The fear of "socialism" is bordering paranoia when it comes to national health care. How anybody could think that making a profit is more important than human life or suffering, is competely beyond me. Just can't wrap my brain around that one.
    I am not thinking about making any profit for myself (I'm not in the health care industry ), I am just concerned about keeping what I worked all my life to have. I don't feel like I should have to help provide for anyone to get a free ride or a free lunch or anything else for free. I believe in charity and in helping others, but I think it should remain a voluntary option.

    I have expressed my opinion in this thread and I will assure you, it will never be changed no matter what anyone can say. Now I'm moving on to other stuff.


    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." ~ Ronald Reagan

Page 1 of 33 12311 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •