Universal Health Care - A Human Right or A Tiered or Privileged System? - US Health Care Bill

[Mcnowhere]

People want such rights? Put the costs up front on something that's also not a right, such as a Hilaryous Care Tax on non-essentials. Want an iToy? Fine, $200, plus a "Hilaryous right" tax of $1,300. Those that don't want to play into big brothers arms can then freely avoid doing so. Put the costs upfront instead of burying it, and leave it voluntarily optional. Enslavement of others will only cause them to leave. I don't want to find myself wanting to sneak into Mexico to escape the Socialist captured and enslaved USA. Who would ever think we one day might long to live in Russia someday, ha.

Oh, good grief! We've had national health care in Canada for many years and capitalism is alive and well here and that's not about to change anytime soon. Our health care might though, if the PTB get their greedy way.

If veterans hospitals are substandard in the US, why not just deal with that issue? Those hospitals are a minority and have been allowed to become ignored. That doesn't have to be, in a country that uses the media to expose every injustice one can think of.

[Divinorumus]

Oh, good grief! We've had national health care in Canada for many years and capitalism is alive and well here and that's not about to change anytime soon.

Don't bet the ranch on that. When your economy tanks too, remember those health taxes won't be decreasing. You'll have those few still employed and employing enslaved to provide for the needs of all those now unemployed because it has become their right. That's when everything totally caves in upon itself. Your doom.

[Mcnowhere]

If our economy tanks, why would you think our employed would in any way be responsible for the unemployed? During the great depression, there were soup line ups here just like in the US. Nothing in our system to date would lead me to believe it would be any different today if our economy tanked. So sorry, I can't buy that. We are not a socialist nation. Far, far from what I would interpret as a socialist nation anyway.

The fact that the majority of Canadians want to hang on to our national health care system has more to do with "compassion" than "socialism". Individual survival of course too.

[Divinorumus]

Well, wait a while longer, you'll see what happens. You just haven't seen what that will lead to yet. Kind of like what is happening here in the USA because of the trade imbalances that nobody seems to feel has already lead us to imminent doom too.

[Mcnowhere]

Well, wait a while longer, you'll see what happens. You just haven't seen what that will lead to yet. Kind of like what is happening here in the USA because of the trade imbalances that nobody seems to feel has already lead us to imminent doom too.

On this I agree.

[Mcnowhere]

I am not thinking about making any profit for myself (I'm not in the health care industry ), I am just concerned about keeping what I worked all my life to have. I don't feel like I should have to help provide for anyone to get a free ride or a free lunch or anything else for free. I believe in charity and in helping others, but I think it should remain a voluntary option.

I have expressed my opinion in this thread and I will assure you, it will never be changed no matter what anyone can say. Now I'm moving on to other stuff.

I'm sure I'll never change your mind Dera but I do have one question. How do you feel when you see documentaries of little children starving to death in underprivilaged nations? Like when you see flies drinking the tears that fall down the cheeks of dying babies? Doesn't this make you wonder how this can be allowed to happen when there are so many rich nations on this planet? If these images tug at your heartstrings as they do mine, why would you not support a system that would ensure that children born (through no choice of their own) into underprivilaged circumstances, would have the health care they need to grow healthy and strong like you and I have had the good fortune of doing? Doesn't it make you sick that poor folks in Africa die for lack of access to simple drugs that you and I take for granted? Hmmm...47 million Americans don't either and thousands of them die every year for the same reason, including children. You just don't see them dying on TV.

[Dera]

I'm sure I'll never change your mind Dera but I do have one question. How do you feel when you see documentaries of little children starving to death in underprivilaged nations? Like when you see flies drinking the tears that fall down the cheeks of dying babies? Doesn't this make you wonder how this can be allowed to happen when there are so many rich nations on this planet? If these images tug at your heartstrings as they do mine, why would you not support a system that would ensure that children born (through no choice of their own) into underprivilaged circumstances, would have the health care they need to grow healthy and strong like you and I have had the good fortune of doing? Doesn't it make you sick that poor folks in Africa die for lack of access to simple drugs that you and I take for granted? Hmmm...47 million Americans don't either and thousands of them die every year for the same reason, including children. You just don't get to see them dying on TV.

Oh for heaven's sake, Mcno. Get real. I can't fix the world and neither can you. Of course I have empathy and compassion for the miserable, sick, starving and dying. Neither you nor I are Mother Teresa types (altho' I'm not sure she was the saint many thought she was.) Just what are you inferring about me anyhow? You and I have differing opinions. Can you leave it at that? I sure can.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/health...chipreport.htm

[Judee]

You're a hypocrite Div. There are certain things that if we are to live in a CIVILIZED society, we all pitch in to pay for. I pay a large part of my property taxes for the school district and I don't have kids. What if I told you I didn't want to pay for your damn kids or grandkids to go to school? And let's take roads. Maybe I can ride a horse to town, and so why the heck should I pay for roads because you choose to live in a stupid city? And airports...we don't need those stupid things either do we? I don't want to have to pay for fire fighters either, or emergency vehicles. Want me to go on and on? Hell, I don't want to pay ANY taxes. Let's all just go back to living in a stinking jungle in a dog-eat-dog fashion. Give me a break! If we are to be called a civilized society, then there are certain critical things that should be available to that societies citizens. Bloody basic health care is one of them!

[Mcnowhere]

You're a hypocrite Div. There are certain things that if we are to live in a CIVILIZED society, we all pitch in to pay for. I pay a large part of my property taxes for the school district and I don't have kids. What if I told you I didn't want to pay for your damn kids or grandkids to go to school? And let's take roads. Maybe I can ride a horse to town, and so why the heck should I pay for roads because you choose to live in a stupid city? And airports...we don't need those stupid things either do we? I don't want to have to pay for fire fighters either, or emergency vehicles. Want me to go on and on? Hell, I don't want to pay ANY taxes. Let's all just to back to living in a stinking jungle in a dog-eat-dog fashion. Give me a break! If we are to be called a civilized society, then there are certain critical things that should be available to that societies citizens. Bloody basic health care is one of them!

Bingo!!

[Mcnowhere]

Oh for heaven's sake, Mcno. Get real. I can't fix the world and neither can you. Of course I have empathy and compassion for the miserable, sick, starving and dying. Neither you nor I are Mother Teresa types (altho' I'm not sure she was the saint many thought she was.) Just what are you inferring about me anyhow? You and I have differing opinions. Can you leave it at that? I sure can.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/health...chipreport.htm

The only thing I was inferring Dera, is that if there were as many documentaries aired on TV regarding how people are suffering in America due to a lack of basic health care, as there are documentaries about people suffering in other parts of the world, you might have a change of heart. You will never see that though, as health care in the US is big business, therefore IMO, it falls into the same murkey waters as all the other subjects that require media black outs to keep us in the dark.

We can change the world, and it's up to each and every one of us to try.

[Project]

any human with a conscience would stop to help another in pain or need. This is all the right to health entails, that any reasonable person would help another in need. A right to life that sucks because you cannot get adequate treatment is a right thrown away. Big brother does not enter into it.

[Divinorumus]

You're a hypocrite Div. There are certain things that if we are to live in a CIVILIZED society, we all pitch in to pay for.

Some things yes and some things no. Again, your right better not depend upon another individual involuntarily having to pay for it. This universal health care will cause many to loose everything they own. If it becomes an involuntary tax, like so many other taxes, you will cause those who can no longer afford this increase in taxes to loose everything they own when the tax man comes to make you pay when you can't. You are basically mandating everyone must pay for health coverage when already they can't, right? Your right should not impose a national shakedown of the populous in the form of an involuntary tax. I will fight against anyone turning me into their right!

I pay a large part of my property taxes for the school district and I don't have kids. What if I told you I didn't want to pay for your damn kids or grandkids to go to school?

Fine, move to a place where there are no schools or school taxes. It does suck though when old fixed income folks loose their homes because they cant afford all them new fancy school taxes. Are more old folks gonna loose their homes because of the additional increases caused by a mandatory health tax? The cost of everything will escalate when suddenly everyone becomes basically insured and now we all must pay for it.

And let's take roads. Maybe I can ride a horse to town, and so why the heck should I pay for roads because you choose to live in a stupid city? And airports...we don't need those stupid things either do we? I don't want to have to pay for fire fighters either, or emergency vehicles. Want me to go on and on? Hell, I don't want to pay ANY taxes.

If you don't own anything that burns you might not wait to pay for a fire truck. Anyhow, those things you mention are not rights either. They seem like infrastructure things, not personal rights. I can see how we all benefit from roads, but I fail to see the benefit in any of us having to involuntarily pay for another persons personal medical bills. It is simply immoral to involuntarily enslave another to satisfy your desires and so called rights. Period. End of discussion (ha)! I am not your liposuction right slave, period! Hell NO! I will start a civil war first!

Let's all just to back to living in a stinking jungle in a dog-eat-dog fashion. Give me a break! If we are to be called a civilized society, then there are certain critical things that should be available to that societies citizens. Bloody basic health care is one of them!

No, that will never stand, not if you force everyone to involuntarily pay, that's just to damn much. (example: ) I will not pay for someone else's bad health because they over-eat or smoke or fail to exercise. No, that will never fly in this country. Never. There will always be those of us that will fight to keep from becoming more enslaved to merely make others happy. No way, I'll fight for freedom before allowing myself to becoming your right and solution to your personal bills or expenses or whatever you are demanding from me.

I'm surprised so few see the dangers in turning our government into our masters and providers. The government should only protect our first 3 original given rights. That's all that I would ask of it. Down with socialism! Not here, not in this country!

[Project]

gotta disagree div, simply because it has been proven. Social health care works. If you don't want to pay for it, I have to submit you have not thought it through... we will all need it at some point, no matter who you are.